Cooperation with Catholics

Yes. Of course Catholics believe in Baptismal Regeneration. I would assume that they would believe that even those like us who Baptize without believing in Bapismal Regeneration are still regenerate, but I could be wrong.

They do apply to protestants as well. The above three points in the Catechism were initially proposed in the following document of Vatican II where they clarify who the "separated communities" are.

 

in part.

Correction of myself. Actually that sentence is not saying that all of those in the Western communities retained the traditions and institutions of the RCC. Some retained none of them. But of those who retained some (ie Lutherans, Reformed, Methodists, etc) the Anglicans hold a special place.

You can click on the link and read it yourself. Those sections deal mostly with the Eastern Orthodox faith and I didn't want to post the whole article. Those Catholics are really wordy.

No prob. That view excludes most of protestant Christianity too.

[ April 11, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Gold Dragon ]

 

in part.</font>[/QUOTE] Which do you think? What uniquely Catholic tradition or institution do you think Baptists adhere to? </font>[/QUOTE]I changed my response above and clarified.

 

I think even most evangelical protestants will agree that the sanctification spoken of in Hebrews 10:10 refers to something called "positional sanctification" of the state of separation between us and God that is a "once and for all" event. Salvation past.

This is contrasted to the "progressive sanctification" process of holiness or being set apart that is talked about in Phillipians 2:12-13. Salvation present.

A third use of sanctification in the Bible is sometimes called "total sanctification" or glorification and is found in passages like 1 Thes 5:23. Salvation future.

 

I love exploring history. We haven't really discussed history here so please enlighten me with where you think I have the history all wrong.

I've shown you evidence of how it isn't different. Please show me evidence of how it is different. I'm always willing to change my mind but, I hope you don't blame me for doubting your mind-reading abilities.

 

Notice that this canon is about "the one justified", "him justified" all in the past tense.

I must admit that I had trouble with the middle section of this canon.

I had to consult some Catholics to see how this is commonly understood and interpreted. They see the entire canon 32 to be about Christians who have already been justfied by faith through grace and that the justification in canon 32 to be equivalent to our understanding of "progressive sanctification". I sure hope canon 32 reads better in latin, because it is terribly confusing in english.

Regarding baptismal regeneration, it is based on a valid interpretation of the following verses in addition to many others that connects baptism to salvation. I don't entirely agree with that interpretation but I wouldn't call it a heresy.

NASB - Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

NASB - Acts 2:28 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB - Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.

NASB - Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

NASB - Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

NASB - 1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Most of protestant Christianity also believes in some form of Baptismal Regeneration.

Catholics view the sacraments as agents of "progressive sanctification" also known as salvation present.

When protestants talk about "salvation" we usually refer to "positional sanctification" or "initial justification" or "salvation past" which Catholics will agree with us does not involve works.

In the biblcal verses I quoted above, it does seem to suggest that the "Law of the Gospel" includes a view of baptism that is more than merely symbolic. I would say including a requirement for belief or lack of belief in baptismal regeneration to salvation is adding something to the gospel. The Catholics I've talked to accept those of us who don't believe in Baptismal regeneration as being saved.

There are many points listed in that page. Although basically they are addressing the sacraments of mass and the eucharist and it must be remembered that the salvation or grace talked about regarding those sacraments is progressive sanctification for those already justified by faith through grace.

[ April 12, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Gold Dragon ]

 

Just an fyi that the Jesuits have not always been popular with Rome. In fact, they often held positions quite close to the reformers.

Their missions work started well before protestant missionaries got the ball rolling. Many missions fields areas were hostile to Christianity, leading to the development of things like equivocation in their practice. Their emphasis on education in missions also lead to the founding of schools all over the world.

They aren't perfect and I agree that Jesuits have historically held some ethically questionable positions.

How did this come up?

 

It seems like there is a lot of confusion about the use of the terms salvation, justification and sanctification by both Catholics and non-Catholics.

Here is the general protestant and Baptist use of these words. We like to separate and compartmentalize these words by time.

Salvation = Justification = Regeneration (past, one-time)
Sanctification (present, ongoing)
Glorification (future, one-time)

However, the Catholic understanding of these words is that biblically, they are used in ways that aren't so neatly bucketed by time.

Salvation = being saved from the consequences of sin (past, present and future)
Justification = being made righteous (past, present and future)
Sanctification = being made holy (past, present and future)

Salvation includes Justification and Sanctification (Phillipians 2)
Justification includes Santification (James 2)

Often, disagreements about theology between the two groups stem from different understandings of how these three words relate to time and each other, both sides citing scripture to defend their positions.