Cooperation with Catholics

Just another Jesuit smokescreen of deception Gold Dragon.

Jesuit Casuistry is just one more reason why we shouldn't cooperate with the Church of Rome.

HankD

 

As for me, I don't need to be a mind-reader Gold because I tried to walk the Catholic way.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


HankD

 

Gold Dragon,

I'm starting to understand why some folks here don't believe that Catholics and Baptists can "preach the same gospel". Any time it appears that we do, it is rationalized as "smokescreens", "equivocation", "double-talk" instead of actually showing that there is a difference or at least wrestling with the biblical passages that Catholics interpret differently.

Of course they know what Catholics really mean because of their astute mind-reading abilities and can see right through the smokescreens and double-talk.

It is amazing the lengths some folks will go to keep their enemies as enemies.

Well said. If the papists weren't around whom could we look down upon?

People will be people. People do peoplish things. It's human nature to say, "See I'm better then you."

 

This was taken from "Roman Catholic & Evangelicals::

"The Catholic position on justification was made infallable dogma at the Council of Trent in reaction to Martin Luther's proclamation that the just shall live by faith alone! Needless to say, Luther's view hit like a lightning bolt in an institution known for it's stress on good works as necessary for salvation. His initial reaction was to the sale of indulgances. An overzealous salesman named Tetzel is said to have promised the potential purchasers of indulgance, "When in the box the penny rings, the soul from Purgatory springs." pg. 222

"First, although several council members recognized an extrinsic element in justification (thereby approaching the Reformers on this point),16 the consensus view was that “the opinion that a sinner may be justified solely as a matter of reputation or imputation . . . is rejected.”17 Therefore, “Justification is thus defined in terms of a man becoming, and not merely being reputed as, righteous.”

Second, in that Trent understands justification in two senses (the second corresponding to the Reformed doctrine of sanctification), this second justification requires good works as a condition for ultimate justification. “It is thus both possible and necessary to keep the law of God.” (Wrong on both counts Mt. 19:26; Rom. 3:20)

In order to understand the pronouncements on the sacraments, one must remember that Trent understood justification in two ways: the first and second phases which Catholic scholars refer to as “initial” and “progressive” justification respectively. Baptism is operative in the first or initial justification, since grace to overcome original sin is “mediated” to us through baptism. Both the Eucharist and penance pertain to the second or progressive sense of justification, and such justification (i.e., righteousness) is said to be “increased” by participation in these sacraments. There is, of course, a third or “ultimate” stage of justification by which—providing one had not committed a mortal sin—one is allowed into heaven.

Theological Arguments for the Doctrine of Merit
Catholic dogma states:
“By his good works the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from God.” Of course, this demand is not intrinsic; it is only because God has placed himself in this situation because of his promise to reward good works. Further, eternal life is given to us on the grounds of our good works. Thus the Council of Trent declared that “those who work well ‘unto the end’ [Matt. 10:22], and who trust in God, life eternal is to be proposed, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, ‘and as a recompense’ which is . . . to be faithfully given to their good works and merit.” It adds, “If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified are in such a way the gift of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works . . . does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.” (From "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma", Ott)

Ott argues that “According to Holy Writ, eternal blessedness in heaven is the reward for good works performed on this earth, and rewards and merit are correlative concepts.” He offers the following Scripture in support:

“ ‘Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven’ (Mt. 5, 12). . . . ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat’ (Mt. 25, 34 et seg.).” He adds, “St. Paul, who stresses grace so much, also emphasized on the other hand, the meritorious nature of good works performed with grace, by teaching that the reward is in proportion to the works: ‘He [God] will render to every man according to his own labour’ (Rom. 2, 6).”37 Other similar passages are cited (1 Cor. 3:8; Col. 3:24; Heb. 10:35; 11:6). He concludes, “he thereby shows that the good works of the just establish a legal claim (meritum de condigno) to reward on God. Cf. Hebr. 6, 10.”38

Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R. E. 1995. Roman Catholics and Evangelicals : Agreements and differences . Baker Books: Grand Rapids, Mich.

So then, Catholics falsely believe that the rewards spoken of in Scripture for one's good works is justifiction itself instead of an extra reward in heaven. They indeed have "another Gospel" based on grace + works = justification.

Charles.
You may claim that "people do peoplish things" as your argument. But the fact is that you either don't have a true grasp for the Gospel, or you are ignorant of Catholic teaching. And Dragon, it's not "astute mindreading" at all as you assert. But rather it's called spiritual discernment (1 John 4:1; John 8:31-32) and good study.

I would recommend that both you and Dragon purchase this book, that BTW is endorsed by both Evangelical and Catholic scholars as being quite accurate in presenting the divide in doctrine by both sides:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801038758/qid=1113015498/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7209236-8735201?v=glance&s=books

I would also suggest that you both read the Book of Galatians first. Several times if that what it takes in order to understand that the Gospel is Christ and Him alone. 1 Cor. 1:31

You might also want to ponder exactly what the Protestants have been protesting against for so many centuries. And why did Catholics conduct their Council of Trent if we both agree on the same Gospel?

[ April 12, 2005, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]

 

Jack,

I'm well familiar with Galatians AND the catechism of the RCC (I'm an ex-catholic).

What I'm also quite familiar with is the fundamentalist tendency to be Pharisaical and judgmental.

Catholics DO have bad doctrine. But if they (as many do) realize that their salvation is possible because Jesus died on the cross then they have salvation just as well as you and I have it. The fact that they believe that Mary prays to God for us is WRONG but it does not render them unsaved just as believing in KJVO onlyism or Wesleyan holiness does not render someone unsaved.

Whom do you think Jesus was talking about when He spoke about the mote in your neighbor's eye and the plank in your own? Too many of us fundamental protestants are concerned about this or that doctrine and not concerned about loving the brother. Many will suffer loss for that - that's for sure.

 

Before considering religious interaction the following information about Roman Catholiciam should be considered.
Source: http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Tracts/fbctruth.htm

May I also state that I believe there are many Christians within the RCC just as I believe there are Christians within the Word Faith movement whose doctrine rivals that of the RCC in its error. [I haven't read all posts so if this information has been posted previously all I can say is that it is worth repeating.]

"The following is a partial list of unscriptural practices that became a part of Roman Catholic dogma over a period of seventeen centuries. Some of the dates given are approximate. In many cases, these heresies were even debated for years before being given the status of required beliefs:

1. Prayers for the dead .....300 AD
2. Making the sign of the cross .....300 AD
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .....375 A.D
4. Use of images in worship .....375 A D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration .....394 AD
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus .....431 AD.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) .....526 AD
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory I .....593 AD
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints .....600 AD
10. Worship of cross, images & relics .....786 AD
11. Canonization of dead saints .....995 AD
12. Celibacy of priesthood .....1079 AD
13. The Rosary .....1090 AD
14. Indulgences .....1190 AD
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III .....1215 AD
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest .....1215 AD
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) .....1220 AD
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion .....1414 AD
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma .....1439 AD
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .....1439 AD
21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent .....1545 AD
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible .....1546 AD
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary .....1854 AD
24. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council .....1870 AD
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) .....1950 AD
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Roman Catholic Church .....1965 AD

Although some of the preceding Roman Catholic heresies are now being questioned by many individuals inside and outside the church, none have been officially repudiated and all continue to be practiced by millions of Catholics around the world. The urgent need today is for Roman Catholics, as well as all who claim to be Christians, to examine their own beliefs and the teachings of their churches by the only sure standard -the Bible. Whatever contradicts, adds to or subtracts from the sixty-six books of the Old and the New Testaments, is error no matter how many may cling to it."

 

Ditto.

HankD

 

This is a ridiculous straw man response.

It isn't a matter of "whom could we look down upon". It isn't about "See I'm better than you".

It is a matter whether the doctrines and practices of the RCC are in agreement with the biblical means of salvation. It is a matter of who is following the "Way" established by Christ and expounded upon by the Apostles.

As Pastor Larry said, both they and we cannot be right. Our views on salvation are contradictory.

It has been stated clearly numerous times now that the belief in religious rituals, penance, or purgatory as necessities for someone to enter heaven constitutes a denial of the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross.

It isn't personal. I like many Catholic people but simply fear that the false gospel they are being taught will result in them not being saved.

 

And you have repeatedly failed to deal with the bottom line issue... Do they believe in the complete and total sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to cover A-L-L of their sins or do they believe that they must pay for part on their own? I am not looking for word play. I am looking for clear reasoning of why someone would be required to observe rituals, do penance, pay indulgences, or go to purgatory if Christ's blood is indeed sufficient for atonement.

Either the Blood is sufficient or it is not. That is a very direct, simple, objective point of differentiation.

 

The second half of this question (after the or) is phrased in a way that is misleading of Catholic understanding, either way you answer it.

They believe in the complete and total sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to cover A-L-L of their sins and they believe that sanctifying works performed by the grace of God plays a role in a living faith that justifies. </font>[/QUOTE]You still evaded the question: Are the rituals, indulgences, penance, and purgatory necessary for someone to pay for their sins or not?

It isn't a difficult or trick question.

We should not be concerned with the "Catholic understanding of it" except as it compares to what scripture actually reveals about how one must come to salvation.

 

HankD,

I wasn't saying that you have a plank in your eye - I'm not sured why you "dittoed" me. Since I have been a baptist the one thing which has disappointed me has been the degree to which we seem to want to judge others. A satanist os obviously not saved. But a Catholic or Methodist who believes that personal works of holiness are important should not be viewed as lost if they hvae professed their belief in Christ's resurrection and death for sins. Jesus said, "Judge not..." We've all heard that one from the lost world. But it does apply here. If a catholic says he believes Christ's sacrifice paid his sin debt then I'll consider him a brother. I think Jesus would agree.

 

Scott,

I think you are also being a bit evasive. You are insisting that not only must he have faith - but faith as you think it should be defined.

The catholic believes that Christ's sacrifice alone made salvation possible. That is faith. He/she also believes that because God is holy we should respect His holiness via various rites. These obviously are not necessary. But they still do not invalidate his/her faith.

 

Not at all Charles. If I am biblically wrong then show me the biblical case against what I have asserted.

"Faith" doesn't do anything unless the object of that faith is correct. Faith that Christ made salvation possible is not the same as faith that he paid for all of our sins.

Again, I am not evading anything but simply stating what I believe the Bible teaches.

But it is faith in the wrong thing. It is faith that ends with a big plus sign so that rituals and works can be tacked on.

No. Instead they demonstrate that their faith is not placed in the biblical means of salvation.

 

The Council of Trent was a Catholic council held from 1545-1563 in an attempt to destroy the progress of the Protestant Reformation. This council denied every Reformation doctrine, including Scripture alone and grace alone. Trent hurled 125 anathemas (eternal damnation) against Bible-believing Christians. These proclamations and anathemas were fleshed out in the murderous persecutions vented upon Bible-believing Christians by Rome, and the solemn fact is that the Council of Trent has never been annulled. The Vatican II Council of the mid-1960s referred to Trent dozens of times, quoted Trent's proclamations as authority, and reaffirmed Trent on every hand. The New Catholic Catechism cites Trent no less than 99 times. There is not the slightest hint that the proclamations of the Council of Trent have been abrogated by Rome. At the opening of the Second Vatican Council, Pope John XXIII stated, "I do accept entirely all that has been decided and declared at the Council of Trent." Every cardinal, bishop and priest who participated in the Vatican II Council signed a document affirming Trent.

DECLARATIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT
Source:
http://www.island-of-freedom.com/index.htm

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 3).

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 5).

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that children, because they have not the act of believing, are not after having received baptism to be numbered among the faithful, and that for this reason are to be rebaptized when they have reached the years of discretion; or that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be baptized in the faith of the Church alone, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 13).

THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 1).

THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone says that Christ received in the Eucharist is received spiritually only and not also sacramentally and really, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 8).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that in the mass a true and real sacrifice is not offered to God; or that to be offered is nothing else than that Christ is given to us to eat, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 1).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that by those words, Do this for a commemoration of me, Christ did not institute the Apostles priests; or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer His own body and blood, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 2).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that the sacrifice of the mass is one only of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory one; or that it profits him only who receives, and ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 3).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that it is a deception to celebrate masses in honor of the saints and in order to obtain their intercession with God, as the Church intends, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 5).

TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, DECREE ON PURGATORY: "Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached."

TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS OF SAINTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES: "The holy council commands all bishops and others who hold the office of teaching and have charge of the cura animarum, that in accordance with the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and with the unanimous teaching of the holy Fathers and the decrees of sacred councils, they above all instruct the faithful diligently in matters relating to intercession and invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the legitimate use of images, teaching them that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their prayers to God for men, that it is good and beneficial suppliantly to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support in order to obtain favors from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our redeemer and savior; and that they think impiously who deny that the saints who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven are to be invoked, or who assert that they do not pray for men, or that our invocation of them to pray for each of us individually is idolatry, or that it is opposed to the word of God and inconsistent with the honor of the one mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ, or that it is foolish to pray vocally or mentally to those who reign in heaven."

 

My, my, my OldRegular. That should certainly give us something to chew on with regard to what the RCC really believes and teaches.

 

That is only a part of what the Council of Trent teaches. Also in the RCC tradition and the teaching magisterium trump Scripture.

 

The Romish form of worship is a sacramental hodge-podge of Christianity and Paganism with the veneration and prayers both to and for the dead, and the offering of the "sacrifice" of the mass where bread and wine are transformed by the priest into God is the central Sacrament of Catholic worship.

It is a religion where nothing happens including the absolution of sins apart from the human intervention of authorised priests and mediators.

HankD