Cooperation with Salvation

[Thinkingstuff]

I was just responding to what you said their motivation was "Since their motivation is the same how is what you're saying any different?" -Thinkingstuff




Apparently that is your interpretation of my words because I said no such thing. I did not divorce the past completed aspect of justification from all other aspects of salvation. I simply defined the past completed aspect as what obtains heaven in relationship to all other aspects which have not the same object.

I'm sorry I misunderstood then. It certainly "sounded" that way when I read it.

Just because heaven is secured by one aspect of salvation does not mean it is isolated or unrelated to all other aspects. It simply means the design and goal of one aspect is not the same as another aspect.

This is very true.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Biblical Christianity is based on faith and faith alone. Catholicism is based on fear, not faith.

Many Catholics would disagree with you on this assessment. However, you might get some quoting proverbs.

The fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

My family and many catholics have no problem with this verse.

There are countless Scriptures that show that salvation is by faith alone.

Faith in operation not just a belief. Big difference. I refer you to James.

We know that an infant cannot exercise faith.

Yes they cannot.

Out of fear of losing salvation he is baptized.

They would say out of obedience. You have to understand the catholic relates baptism to circumcision and that Christ through his apostles commanded baptisms of entire households as in Cornelius, and the Jailer. Peter said

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

They see this as direct obedience not fear. The Catholic Church believes it to be more than a "church" in our modern lexicon but a "kingdom" to whom it populates with Catholics young and old a like. This is the significant doctrinal difference from other churches. Even Paul makes a correlation in Romans 4:11

11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them

and specifically in Col 2:11-12

11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

This is how the CC sees baptism of infants and its correlation to the Kingdom. Its not really fear based at all but a building of the Kingdom in their minds.

There is no other reason for infant baptism.

I've just shown you there is in their sense.

Look up the history of it. The RCC believes in baptismal regeneration. Without baptism there is no salvation. Thus baptize the infant lest it be lost.

I have and its clear it was an early practice in the early church I refer you to JND Kelly's early Christian doctrines. Though scripturally apart from Col. 2 and tying it with circumcision. I find scriptures are silent on infants and baptism also presupposes repentance. Which is an action that can only be done as an aware person.

When one dies they go to purgatory.

though I find the scriptures used to support purgatory are weak at best I wonder if you understand the Catholic consept of purgatory. Clearly Purgatory has to do with theosis or divinization. The idea is all the things you hold onto in this life are wiped away. Not Purgatory is a state not as in a place as we understand it.

Prayers are said for those in purgatory so that their time may be shortened, so that their suffering may be lessened, etc.

Yes and I'm uncomfortable with this. Yet as to it being based on

This is fear.

From My readings I doubt it. Its based on the consept of the community of believers. Thats where this doctrine of praying for those in the process of purgation get its hold. When some one physically dies they don't go away but remain part of the community. So its consern that they may recieve their hoped for rewards and attain theosis. Though for some I do not doubt it is out of fear. Certainly indulgences in the middle ages played on this fear.

Salvation is by works. If you don't work continuously, that is keep yourself from mortal sin, you will go to hell

The Catholic will deny you this one. And easily argue how is this any different from saying if your saved and don't live like you're supposed to you were never saved to begin with? Certainly the faith Doesn't give you license to live how ever evil-ly you want now does it? But a person on the road to salvation will be known by what he does. Again refer you to James.

One does not have assurance of salvation.

Yes and no. No Catholic will say (without special revelation) that they've made it. Certainly, but they will support the guarantee that if they do not apostate heaven is theirs.

This is fear.

Again a mischaracterization. Though again many Catholics do hold this "fear" of yours but it comes from a lack of understanding their own faith.

The RCC is a religion of fear, even when the Bible says over and over again that God is a God of love.

Just to mess with you DHK. The bible also speaks of God as a terrible force not to be triffled with. People ask the mountains to fall on them rather than deal with God. For you DHK you don't even believe God is a God of love. Why may you ask? Well because (and I disagree with you) for you God only loves the elect he does not love anything not elect or that which will be redeemed. So God in your view is a God of limited love to only the elect. I honestly believe God loves the whole world even those he sends to hell.

God is a God of love; not of fear.

I disagree God is a God of love and to be feared.

The RCC is a religion of fear.

I believe you are correct in that there are RCC who opperated their faith in fear, I don't believe the religion is one of fear.

The RCC teaches out of fear; Christ teaches to come to him by faith because he loves you. What a difference that .

I don't think this is entirely true. How many teachings did Jesus do on hell? How many times did he say you must do this or be burned? I think you've lost a bit of balance here. Certainly, Billy Sunday would not hide from sermons on hell if it brought people to repentance. Or how about Jonathan Edwards sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. Certainly you may believe Catholicism is a faith of Fear but don't deny fear has its place in our faith.

Catholics pray to Mary. Why?

I explained why. Why do you keep asking?

There is a better chance (they think) that their prayers will be heard if Mary intercedes on their behalf to Jesus.

Nope that wasn't the answer. Communion of Saints is the answer.

Perhaps Jesus will be more willing to hear them if His mother asks on behalf of them. This indicates a fear of approaching Christ directly.

If anything they believe a greater number of people are more likely to be heard that are praying unceasingly. But again - communion of Saints.

They are instructed to confess their sins to a priest and not to God,

And we are instructed to

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

God isn't mentioned here. Also do you confess your sins to other church members? If you don't don't you think you're missing out on healing. This confession thing isn't a big issue. I can tell you my sins and you pray for me and I'm healed. Certianly the passage dosen't signify an episcopal, or a bishop, but it seems to imply any member. However, we are asked to do this.

Is their a fear of confessing their sins straight to God?

Nope they're just obeying James. Also note according to JND Kelly the early church had open confessions. You would stand up in the congregation and confess your sins. Funny how quickly that went away.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

He states that we must accept his offer of love through faith and faith alone.

Scripture please.

There is no cooperation on that point.

expressing faith is cooperation.

Salvation is by faith.

That fact doesn't change.

Jesus paid the price for the penalty of sins.

They would not disagree there.

Baptism cannot help with our salvation, and neither can good works.

this point can be argued certainly it is a sticking point. However, are you going to the extreem and purposely live sinfully to prove the point? What did Paul say in Romans? God forbid!

Neither can purgatory.

I believe as I live this life I'm being purged of this world and will attain theosis (Christlikeness upon glory) and I'm not catholic.

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."

And your point is? Catholics don't deny this.

It is not through the RCC that one can gain entrance into heaven, but through Christ alone.

Did you miss all the NT verses That says the church body is the body of Christ? DHK I would really love a sit down with you and my Catholic Family just to see the interaction. I have nothing to loose in this discussion because I'm not my family but my limited knowledge of the Catholic Faith and with my bias against it, I can show you how their doctrine might be arrived at via scriptures. I wonder how you would fare with someone who has a dog in the fight.

There are the basic differences. They are great and wide. One is by faith; the other is by fear. They are at polar opposites of each other

Once you come up with a difference that successfully holds water I may use it when speaking to them next. Nice try but your premise was wrong.