Cooperative Program Giving

[Jimmy C]

Joseph,

There is no doubt that there is a spritual element. I submit that it is an obedience issue. Since one of the main distinctives of the SBC is the cooperative program, if you dont want to participate fully you might as well be in IFB church and appoint your own missionaries etc.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
Joseph,

There is no doubt that there is a spritual element. I submit that it is an obedience issue. Since one of the main distinctives of the SBC is the cooperative program, if you dont want to participate fully you might as well be in IFB church and appoint your own missionaries etc.

Distinctives do change as visions change. It is part of life and effective leadership. Wouldn't you agree?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Jimmy C]

There may be a system that does it better than the cooperative program, but I have no idea what it might be. Unless the CP absolutely implodes I cannot imagine the SBC would do away with it. The efficiencies of the CP are one of the hallmarks of it, the connectivity make each church, not matter how large or small, an integeral part. It allows someone from even podunk arkansas (cheap shot) who may be scared to death to get in front of people in a deputization process the ability to go straight to the mission field. it allows that same individual the opportunity to go to seminary and not come out with a mountain of debt.

A Smarter, more spritual person than I may come up with a new system - but for now the CP is what we have. And our Leaders need to lead out in support of it.

Once again I will throw it in your court. YOu are the president of the SBC, how do you get CP giving up by the churches or how do you replace the CP and still accomplish the great things the CP accomplishes.

 

[Hardsheller]

Jimmy C,

We are starting here in Mo. in our own association by proposing that we start one New Association by having two existing Associations come together. This is not a merger but a disbanding and a restart.

This will eliminate duplication of effort in our two county area and streamline our cooperative missions endeavors. The two had maintained separate Associational Organizations and had coordinated effort through a Non-Profit Central Mission Board. By eliminating all three Organizations and beginning One new organization we feel like we are being better stewards of the monies the Churches send to the Associational Level.

I for one believe Leaders can bring about great change in organizations - CP not excepted.

 

[Jimmy C]

Hardsheller

I would agree that there are inefficiencies in our system, and that it is a good thing to go in from time to time and evaluate from top to bottom - much like your association is doing.

But at the risk of sounding like a broken record here, the leaders of the SBC must step up to the plate and lead, talking a good game doesnt take you very far. My guess is that of the SBCers on this board, most come from churches that give 10% or more to the SBC, and then give additional $$ on top of that to other mission causes. I know that our church gives a total of 14% - w/10% to the SBC (I am chair of our stewardship committee.)

 

[j_barner2000]

we give 10 to CP
3 to our state association
1 to the local association and
1 for local missions ( this is to help out with assistance to folks who come asking etc.)

I strongly believe that the SBC model of a central org administrating missions is the best way to do it. I also believe our churches need to educate people about the Biblical model for giving.

 

[Kaylor]

In the same week that the Baptist Press reported the financial problems due to lower CP giving, they also reported on the Executive Board's ruling to not accept money from all Baptists. I had made such a motion at the 2003 meeting. Currently, for example, they refuse money from the Baptist General Convention of Missouri. So in essence they are saying, "Please give us more money; oh, but not you guys." If you ask me they have reaped what they sowed.

 

[Gunther]

The cause of Christ in missions is to be accomplished under the support of God's people. The mods can continue with their own cause. We don't need or want their money.

 

[rsr]

We don't need or want their money.

They haven't turned down the BGCT's money.

 

[Gunther]

Hopefully it won't be too much longer. Especially with the Southern Baptists of Texas gaining more and more speed while the BGCT, well, you know.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Gunther:

Peddling worthless theology is not missions.

Amen

Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
it allows that same individual the opportunity to go to seminary and not come out with a mountain of debt.

I have read you give a similar comment on a previous page about the seminary. Personally I considered attending a SBC school but the cost was more than a non Sbc one. I may be the only one who experienced this but it hurts me when after all the CP giving I still couldn't get a break. The same is said of lifeway because as a SBC church who gives 10% I feel we are part owners of this book store but I can routinely purchase supplies at a lower price from family book stores and some others. I also am offended that as a SBC church I pay the same at lifeway as an independant church does. I think the best bet is to slim down the state conventions, their leadership is for the most part too well paid and have become an elitist group. Concerning the mega churches only giving 2% the reason they are still praised and their pastors made the SBc and state leaders is because their 2% is more than my small churches 10%. Money is the bottom line and will remain so until God once again becomes more important than politics in the SBC.

Murph

 

[Jimmy C]

C.S.

My frame of reference is two outstanding seminaries in the Dallas Ft worth area. Dallas Theological Seminary and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I have friends who have attended both, and I am aquainted with professors from both. An education from SWBTS is much cheaper for a southern baptist than is one from DTS.

On the lifeway issue, I think that the main target of sunday school cirrculum from lifeway is Southern Baptists and the literature is probably priced accordingly. It seems to me that I have read that lifeway is losing money or at the very least breaking even. Good stewardship would require that they have a goal of breaking even, or a very slight loss to assure that the churches are getting the best cirriculum at the most competitive prices. They are not a monopoly however, and if you find better for a better cost use it!

quote:
_______________________________________________
C.S. Murphy:
Concerning the mega churches only giving 2% the reason they are still praised and their pastors made the SBc and state leaders is because their 2% is more than my small churches 10%. Money is the bottom line and will remain so until God once again becomes more important than politics in the SBC.
________________________________________________

Interesting comment - the widows mite comes to mind doesnt it.

When our church was studying joining the SBTC we met with representatives from the BGCT and the SBTC. One of the things that really impressed me from the BGCT was the accounting of every dollar that our church had given, and the small amount that went into administration (BGCT salaries) The number of great ministries they support is also a blessing.

The SBTC was doing some good things as well, but mainly in the area of starting new churches. They have now purchased land and broken ground on a new building and have entered into an agreement with Houston Baptist. Houston Baptist will be jointly supported by the BGCT and the SBTC.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Hopefully it won't be too much longer. Especially with the Southern Baptists of Texas gaining more and more speed while the BGCT, well, you know.

Remains true to the gospel?

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gunther:
Hopefully it won't be too much longer. Especially with the Southern Baptists of Texas gaining more and more speed while the BGCT, well, you know.

Remains true to the gospel? </font>[/QUOTE]Whatever!

 

[blackbird]

My deacons serve as our Finance Committee here---and they were "chit-chattin'" about how it would be nice if we could somehow "reduce" the debt on our construction project loan---plus---be able to pay the Youth Minister more for a job well done!!

One of um commented(I, as pastor am privied to sit in on any meeting I wish--so I was there in a leadership position)--anyway--he commented(off the record) that it would be great if we just went ahead and reduced the percentage of our CP giving--and use that to finance a raise for the youth man--plus make an extra payment or two per year---

Before I had a chance to speak up---another fella took the words right out of my mouth---"Naw! We can't do that--we can't reduce our missions percentages! We just need to up our own personal percentage of giving"---boooooooy, I wanted to hug all over that man!!! Tell him what kind of a man he really is!!!! That deacon is one of my heroes now!

Folks listen! That money is US going out in the minds and bodies of those SBC missionaries!

Here's another thought on raising more money for CP---and its simple!! We're gonna have to keep starting new churches---we've saturated our 40,000 churches(for the most part) with asking for increased giving---keep starting new churches and teach those NEW brothers how to give and how not to stop giving to the CP(just like that deacon of mine)---thats another way to provide funds---you say, "Well, thats the slow way!!!----well, by golly--its faster than what the CP will get out of churches who don't give what they need to give!


Does this sound like a good idea?

Blackbird

 

[Hardsheller]

Blackbird,

Does your youth minister deserve a raise? Does he need a raise?

If the answer is Yes - Then you ought to give him one regardless of what you do with CP.

How a Church takes care of it's Ministers says volumes about it's real heart for Missions.

 

[Hardsheller]

Blackbird,

What part of the South do you live in? Last time I was down there there was a Southern Baptist Church on every corner and down every few miles of blacktop or county road.

Where you gonna stack all those new churches?

I think a better idea is closing the ones that aren't growing, Filling the ones that are, and Building new ones to hold the overflow.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
C.S.

They are not a monopoly however, and if you find better for a better cost use it!

Sorry but that's not good enough IMO. Our church has invested in and continue to help support lifeway and I feel we should get something for that. You failed to answer my question about why we don't get a better price than someone walking in off the street. As I see it one big problem in SBC is that when the leaders ask for our support they speak of it in a family manner, such as we are all in this together. But when we as churches want something it is more a responce like yours that we get. I don't plan on leaving the SBC but I feel that work needs to be done.
Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by blackbird:

One of um commented(I, as pastor am privied to sit in on any meeting I wish--so I was there in a leadership position)--anyway--he commented(off the record) that it would be great if we just went ahead and reduced the percentage of our CP giving--and use that to finance a raise for the youth man--plus make an extra payment or two per year---

Before I had a chance to speak up---another fella took the words right out of my mouth---"Naw! We can't do that--we can't reduce our missions percentages! We just need to up our own personal percentage of giving"---boooooooy, I wanted to hug all over that man!!! Tell him what kind of a man he really is!!!! That deacon is one of my heroes now!


Blackbird

Now Blackbird i appreciate and agree with your statement but I personally feel the 10% to CP is too much and here is why. #1 I feel we should budget 10% for missions if for no other reason to set a good tithing and stewardship example for the membership. #2 The amount budgeted to CP should remain our top forus but should be lowered to include all budgeted missions to equal 10%. Say 2% to local Association 6% Cp and 2% local ministries or whatever. This accomplishes the goal of giving ten percent and still allows personal donations to other mission causes such as Lottie Moon, Annie Armstrong etc. This will free up much needed money that can be used to pay your youth pastor. This idea may seem wrong to some but consider this. In our church last year we gave over 15% to budgeted missions not including things like lottie and annie. Also we like many other churches are stretched to the limit money wise and while many in the church want to keep giving these percentages we are lacking funds to support ministries in our church. What is the answer? Another thought I had about this is if a Couple came to me asking me for financial advise, and after reviewing their budget found that they weren't blowing money just needed more funds. Of course I would ask what their giving was and if they said they tithed over 15% I would reccomend they lowered that to 10% if the difference would help their budget to work. I may get a difference of opinion on this but I don't feel God would be unhappy with this advise.
Murph