Corporal punishment

[evangelist6589]

In the old days they would whip lawbreakers. Today even spanking your own kids will soon be a crime in all states. Do you think this form of punishment works? The humanistic wisdom of today would say no but is this true? Were people more respectful of laws and authority in the 17th century? The old west? Opinions...

 

[annsni]

I have spanked my kids - some more than others. But it worked and we have gotten 2 to adulthood and 2 are in their teens and I've liked these kids all along and seriously have not had any kinds of issues with them. They are responsible, respectful, fun to be around and all around good kids.

 

[Jerome]

jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/doug-phillips-mentor-and-spiritual-father-speaks-out/comment-page-1/#comment-28449

"Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is....He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives."

jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/doug-phillips-mentor-and-spiritual-father-speaks-out/comment-page-1/#comment-29676

"I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were."

"After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home."

 

[JonC]

In the old days they would whip lawbreakers. Today even spanking your own kids will soon be a crime in all states. Do you think this form of punishment works? The humanistic wisdom of today would say no but is this true? Were people more respectful of laws and authority in the 17th century? The old west? Opinions...

I think it depends on the age of the child. A toddler will learn not to touch a hot stove either by the mild pain of a bottom smacked or by touching a hot stove. As children mature the effectiveness of such punishments decline. I believe this is because where the toddler may associate the pain of a spanking with a particular act, the maturing child associates it as a matter of will (the physical punishment pales compared to the victory of the act).

 

[reformed_baptist]

If we don't discipline our children it is a sign that we don't love our children (Heb 12:6)

If we over discipline our children it is also wrong (Eph 6:4)

There is a balance to be struck. There are times when a short, sharp punishment is exactly what is needed, that is usually when the child is very young (as one has already pointed out). There are other times that it is very inappropriate - the question is, is the discipline carried out as an act of love and in an environment of love?

 

[reformed_baptist]

jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/doug-phillips-mentor-and-spiritual-father-speaks-out/comment-page-1/#comment-28449

"Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is....He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives."

jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/doug-phillips-mentor-and-spiritual-father-speaks-out/comment-page-1/#comment-29676

"I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were."

"After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home."

And of course, you have the evidence to support these claims?

 

[Darrell C]

In the old days they would whip lawbreakers. Today even spanking your own kids will soon be a crime in all states. Do you think this form of punishment works? The humanistic wisdom of today would say no but is this true? Were people more respectful of laws and authority in the 17th century? The old west? Opinions...

Well, we are told to beat the Hell out of our children...


Proverbs 23:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.


...aren't we?




God bless.

 

[maddog]

Yes.

 

[Reynolds]

In the old days they would whip lawbreakers. Today even spanking your own kids will soon be a crime in all states. Do you think this form of punishment works? The humanistic wisdom of today would say no but is this true? Were people more respectful of laws and authority in the 17th century? The old west? Opinions...

God created us and he plainly instructed it. I guess He should know best what works on His creation. I am not sure what states you are talking about, but in most southern states corporal punishment is very much legal.

 

[HankD]

jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/doug-phillips-mentor-and-spiritual-father-speaks-out/comment-page-1/#comment-28449

"Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is....He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives."

jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/doug-phillips-mentor-and-spiritual-father-speaks-out/comment-page-1/#comment-29676

"I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were."

"After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home."

Why do I doubt this? Are you sure they weren't playing a trick on you?

Hank

 

[HankD]

When in Maine,we used corporal punishment with our children for major offenses (e.g. one of our boys played with matches and set one of our barns on fire).

One of their friends told his parents we beat our kids "till they were bloody".

Understandably Child Services got involved and planned on taking our kids and told me "Don't bother getting lawyer it won't do any good".

The next day I got to the county courthouse with a lawyer before them and the judge would not allow them to take the kids until they proved their allegations.
They were angry with me of course. They had to do honest work for what they wanted.

They went to the school and without our permission stripped each of the children naked and examined them in several places on their bodies (Medical professionals were there).
They privately interviewed each of the kids.
They Interviewed each of their teachers.
They went into town and interviewed each of our doctors and dentists.
They interviewed our pastor.
They interviewed several of our neighbors.
I was the only one they didn't interview so I gave a written statement to the court denying the allegations.

The charges were dropped because of lack of evidence - no apology.

We found out that if you didn't have a lawyer and/or didn't make an effort to rescue your kids they often just took them - apparently it was considered "evidence" if you didn't deny the allegation or didn't get a lawyer and then you might not see your children for months (even if your innocence was eventually proven).

Even though you know your innocence, take the time to have a lawyer on hand.
Fortunately I was a private business man in those days and had a lawyer.

After the trauma wore off we joked about it. "Dad we're gonna tell child services"

HankD

 

[rlvaughn]

The Bible is consistent on teaching corporal punishment for children. God knows better than modern psychologists and such like. For example:

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 19:18
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 23:13-14
Proverbs 29:15
Hebrews 12:7-11

 

[reformed_baptist]

The Bible is consistent on teaching corporal punishment for children. God knows better than modern psychologists and such like. For example:

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 19:18
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 23:13-14
Proverbs 29:15
Hebrews 12:7-11

Does 'the rod' necessarily demand the interpretation of corporal punishment or might it (in some instances) be a more general appeal to the need for firm discipline and clear standard of behavior been set?

Please note, this is not a smacking your children is wrong post - I believe corporal punishment is one tool God has given us to bring up our children but clearly there are also other principles that come into play, for example:

Consider Eph 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. What bearing does this clear instruction have on how we make use of corporal punishment int he home?

Another principle to consider is the need to submit to government Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. - I don't know the laws over that side of the pond (or even how laws work across federal and state etc) so I certainly don't know if the OPs assessment is correct. Were I live judicious corporal punishment is still legal (though frowned upon by many). So the question becomes, is there a way for me to comply with scriptures demands and still submit to government or does this become a case in which I must choose to put the will of God before the law of the land because they are opposed to one another?

If I decide that is, indeed, the situation, and that the only way I can honour God is going against the law of the land then the questions still come, 'Am I prepared to loose my children and see the state take over their care and education?' Maybe that is the cost that faithfulness will demand, in which case we will have trust that God will honour those who honour him.

This is not intended to be a post full of answers, rather it is intended to make the point that this is an issue that requires a more thoughtful response then, 'the bible says, 'spare the rod spoil the child.'' (I am not meaning to suggest you said that - your post just seemed the most logical to launch this series of thoughts from )

 

[Reynolds]

When in Maine,we used corporal punishment with our children for major offenses (e.g. one of our boys played with matches and set one of our barns on fire).

One of their friends told his parents we beat our kids "till they were bloody".

Understandably Child Services got involved and planned on taking our kids and told me "Don't bother getting lawyer it won't do any good".

The next day I got to the county courthouse with a lawyer before them and the judge would not allow them to take the kids until they proved their allegations.
They were angry with me of course. They had to do honest work for what they wanted.

They went to the school and without our permission stripped each of the children naked and examined them in several places on their bodies (Medical professionals were there).
They privately interviewed each of the kids.
They Interviewed each of their teachers.
They went into town and interviewed each of our doctors and dentists.
They interviewed our pastor.
They interviewed several of our neighbors.
I was the only one they didn't interview so I gave a written statement to the court denying the allegations.

The charges were dropped because of lack of evidence - no apology.

We found out that if you didn't have a lawyer and/or didn't make an effort to rescue your kids they often just took them - apparently it was considered "evidence" if you didn't deny the allegation or didn't get a lawyer and then you might not see your children for months (even if your innocence was eventually proven).

Even though you know your innocence, take the time to have a lawyer on hand.
Fortunately I was a private business man in those days and had a lawyer.

After the trauma wore off we joked about it. "Dad we're gonna tell child services"

HankD

I was a police officer for 17 years. I quite regularly saw DEFACS over react. I likewise quite often saw the Superior court judges scold them soundly. With one nudge, the scolded usually involved a trade of profanity about how they either were illiterate or wilfully chose to violate the law.

 

[rlvaughn]

This is not intended to be a post full of answers, rather it is intended to make the point that this is an issue that requires a more thoughtful response then, 'the bible says, 'spare the rod spoil the child.'' (I am not meaning to suggest you said that - your post just seemed the most logical to launch this series of thoughts from.

No problem. As I stated in the thread on "Proof-texting," I think pointing to texts is a good starting point. But it is not the destination. The texts must be examined and understood. That said, I probably won't spend a lot of time posting on those points, since my objective was to simply answer my opinion re the opening post and corporal punishment of children.

Does 'the rod' necessarily demand the interpretation of corporal punishment or might it (in some instances) be a more general appeal to the need for firm discipline and clear standard of behavior been set?

I don't know. There are passages that are more of a general appeal to discipline rather than to corporal punishment (though I, to this point, interpret the ones I gave above a primarily about CP). Several of the texts in Proverbs are clearly about corporal punishment, and it is probably best to understand that Solomon means corporal punishment in each case where he refers to the rod. I think physical punishment, spanking, is what we generally understand corporal punishment to be when speaking of punishing children -- though I think the term itself may have a wider range of meaning (e.g., I think in legal terms imprisonment is a form of corporal punishment).

Please note, this is not a smacking your children is wrong post - I believe corporal punishment is one tool God has given us to bring up our children but clearly there are also other principles that come into play...

I agree with your points, and that discipline is much broader in perspective than just corporal punishment, and must be approached with clear standards, consistency and love.

There are forms of discipline, so-called, that really only assuage the conscience of the parent to think they might be exercising some sort of authority, but do little in the way of actually teaching, correcting or disciplining the child. "1, 2, 3" comes to mind. "I'll give you to 3! 1! 2! uh, uh, 2-1/2. (long pause) um, ok, now, uh, 2-3/4?...." (That might work OK if the user actually intended to discipline after "3" and the child knew it would be consistently applied.)

Another principle to consider is the need to submit to government...

Regarding this, Proverbs 26:3 (A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back) seems to endorse flogging as a form of punishment available to authorities, though there might be other ways to interpret it.

 

[tyndale1946]

In the old days they would whip lawbreakers. Today even spanking your own kids will soon be a crime in all states. Do you think this form of punishment works? The humanistic wisdom of today would say no but is this true? Were people more respectful of laws and authority in the 17th century? The old west? Opinions...

I was taking Criminology Corrections in college in San Diego in 1972... One of the questions our teacher asked was what is good deterrent for serious crimes in the City Of San Diego?... Some said well hanging didn't work, the electric chair, they did away with that... I raised my hand and the teacher said and what are your thoughts... You know I said: We could put a guillotine in the town square that would get their attention... No he said that wouldn't work either... It would just start a Revolution... Brother Glen

Btw about the wife thing, if I tried that on my wife I would be picking myself off the floor... And I also remember a weird episode on Johnny Carson of an 80 year old Woman that still spanked her kid who was 50+... Then she demonstrated it live on National TV

 

[David Kent]

Does 'the rod' necessarily demand the interpretation of corporal punishment or might it (in some instances) be a more general appeal to the need for firm discipline and clear standard of behavior been set?

Please note, this is not a smacking your children is wrong post - I believe corporal punishment is one tool God has given us to bring up our children but clearly there are also other principles that come into play, for example:

Consider Eph 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. What bearing does this clear instruction have on how we make use of corporal punishment int he home?

Another principle to consider is the need to submit to government Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. - I don't know the laws over that side of the pond (or even how laws work across federal and state etc) so I certainly don't know if the OPs assessment is correct. Were I live judicious corporal punishment is still legal (though frowned upon by many). So the question becomes, is there a way for me to comply with scriptures demands and still submit to government or does this become a case in which I must choose to put the will of God before the law of the land because they are opposed to one another?

If I decide that is, indeed, the situation, and that the only way I can honour God is going against the law of the land then the questions still come, 'Am I prepared to loose my children and see the state take over their care and education?' Maybe that is the cost that faithfulness will demand, in which case we will have trust that God will honour those who honour him.

This is not intended to be a post full of answers, rather it is intended to make the point that this is an issue that requires a more thoughtful response then, 'the bible says, 'spare the rod spoil the child.'' (I am not meaning to suggest you said that - your post just seemed the most logical to launch this series of thoughts from )

I was disciplined as a child at home and at school. I once got six of the best by the headmaster. I never erred in the same way again, I don't think it did me any harm.

 

[Happy]

In the old days they would whip lawbreakers. Today even spanking your own kids will soon be a crime in all states. Do you think this form of punishment works? The humanistic wisdom of today would say no but is this true? Were people more respectful of laws and authority in the 17th century? The old west? Opinions...

Historically and Today, the head of the household is the head of "family government".
When a head of the household relinquishes their position, by abandonment, by giving it another, (other person or a government), THAT household becomes SUBJECT TO the others, rules, laws, authority, etc.

As seen today, LAWS have "changed" drastically, to favor the LAW breakers and PUNISH those who abide by the LAW.

As seen today, the HEADS of family governments, have "changed" drastically, in abandonment and in "GIVING" the government AUTHORITY over their household.

Today even spanking your own kids will soon be a crime in all states.

A crime is ONLY applicable, IF one IS "subject to" the LAW to begin with, and therefore "subject to" the authorities WHO "enforce" the Law.

A LAW has no "effect", if one is NOT "subject to" to law, and the enforcement thereof.

"Corporal punishment", became a big topic, primarily regarding, children in public schools. Public Schools, which the parent first "agreed" to "subject themselves and their children to" its rules, bylaws, laws, and regulations and the authority thereof.

"Corporal punishment", IN HOMES, came into play, primarily when, "state run homes and schools", were superseded, by "foster homes", where the state pays for children to reside in private homes (and subject to the governments rules, laws, etc.) (instead of abandoned children being housed in state homes).

Additionally, the government promotes, that the Children, bypass the head of the family government, and contact the government directly, to make allegations, be they true or false.

The Feds and the State government absolutely do have the power to create laws, rules and regulations.

It is the individuals responsibility to KNOW, if any law, rule or regulation APPLIES to them or their household.

And THAT ^ is accomplished by applying the very basics of WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY and WHERE per THEM specifically and ANY Law so written.

I could care less IF EVERY sovereign state in the Union, writes laws about "spanking" children.
Because everyone with children has the "choice" to "subject" their "child" or "themselves" to the government or not.

I absolutely do not favor beating a child. Nor do I find it in the least necessary. However I am NOT opposed to corporal punishment administered in the proper context of force and effect.

And as well I have observed God gifted us with TWO hands, and while one hand can get the attention of an unruly child, the other hand is also effective in hugging the unruly child.

 

[Happy]

Does 'the rod' necessarily demand the interpretation of corporal punishment or might it (in some instances) be a more general appeal to the need for firm discipline and clear standard of behavior been set?

Please note, this is not a smacking your children is wrong post - I believe corporal punishment is one tool God has given us to bring up our children but clearly there are also other principles that come into play, for example:

Consider Eph 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. What bearing does this clear instruction have on how we make use of corporal punishment int he home?

Another principle to consider is the need to submit to government Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. - I don't know the laws over that side of the pond (or even how laws work across federal and state etc) so I certainly don't know if the OPs assessment is correct. Were I live judicious corporal punishment is still legal (though frowned upon by many). So the question becomes, is there a way for me to comply with scriptures demands and still submit to government or does this become a case in which I must choose to put the will of God before the law of the land because they are opposed to one another?

If I decide that is, indeed, the situation, and that the only way I can honour God is going against the law of the land then the questions still come, 'Am I prepared to loose my children and see the state take over their care and education?' Maybe that is the cost that faithfulness will demand, in which case we will have trust that God will honour those who honour him.

This is not intended to be a post full of answers, rather it is intended to make the point that this is an issue that requires a more thoughtful response then, 'the bible says, 'spare the rod spoil the child.'' (I am not meaning to suggest you said that - your post just seemed the most logical to launch this series of thoughts from )

In conjunction with the "corporal punishment" itself, which is a result because of an unacceptable behavior...

The "parenting" "SKILLS", of many parents today, is "sorely" lacking....and IMO, is a major factor in WHY so many kids are "without" the "foundational knowledge and skills" to function in society, and are constantly looking for a way to escape what "should be" a joyous time frame in their lives. (which is some of the scriptural things you pointed out....ie the parental behavior toward the child.) ie balance.

 

[Darrell C]

I think most here who are over the age of 30 might understand the value of discipline in regards to children, and of course I think most would see a difference between discipline and abuse.

I heard something one preacher said which to me makes quite a bit of sense: "The Bible speaks of discipline with the rod, and never speaks about using the hand. When a parent disciplines with a rod, or belt, the child fears the rod or belt. When a parent disciplines with the hand, the child fears the parent."

I can look back and honestly say that though disciplined with a belt as a child, I harbor no ill feelings for those who used it. However, in regards to those who slapped me in the face, I still have a problem with that.


God bless.