Corporate Election

[JonC]

What are the arguments for and against corporate election?


"Most simply, corporate election refers to the choice of a group, which entails the choice of its individual members by virtue of their membership in the group. Thus, individuals are not elected as individuals directly, but secondarily as members of the elect group. Nevertheless, corporate election necessarily entails a type of individual election because of the inextricable connection between any group and the individuals who belong to it. Individuals are elect as a consequence of their membership in the group. "

 

[Yeshua1]

What are the arguments for and against corporate election?


"Most simply, corporate election refers to the choice of a group, which entails the choice of its individual members by virtue of their membership in the group. Thus, individuals are not elected as individuals directly, but secondarily as members of the elect group. Nevertheless, corporate election necessarily entails a type of individual election because of the inextricable connection between any group and the individuals who belong to it. Individuals are elect as a consequence of their membership in the group. "

This is the fall back and default position of Arminians, as they do not want there to be individual election, but the plan was elect itself!

 

[JonC]

This is the fall back and default position of Arminians, as they do not want there to be individual election, but the plan was elect itself!

Arminians hold to individual election based on divine foreknowledge (defined as pre-knowledge).

I'm asking about corporate election vmas opposed to individual election (regardless of individual election being foreseen or decreed).

 

[Van]

The choice to save believers is a corporate election and none of the believers have been chosen. The claim a corporate election "entails the choice of individuals" is false. Say I am driving to the store and I choose to buy grapes. Have I chosen individual grapes? No, of course not. Only when I subsequently pick a package of grapes, were the individual grapes chosen. Same thing with salvation. God chose to redeem believers, but did not pick any individuals. Why, because we existed as not a people chosen by God, before we were chosen as a people for God's possession. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Scripture requires the Election of Ephesians 1:4 to be corporate. Full Stop.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is the fall back and default position of Arminians, as they do not want there to be individual election, but the plan was elect itself!

How do you know what they want or don’t want? have you talked to some that expressed what they want or are you assuming so as to be able to demonize them?


Where are these arminians of which you have determined what they want?

 

[RipponRedeaux]

How do you know what they want or don’t want? have you talked to some that expressed what they want or are you assuming so as to be able to demonize them?


Where are these arminians of which you have determined what they want?

Do you believe that you are elect? Or do you, in error, like MB, think that only applies to Jews?

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you believe that you are elect? Or do you, in error, like MB, think that only applies to Jews?

uh no I don’t agree with him on much. There are different types of election. There is an election of the Jews but that is not the only one. I do support corporate election of all believers.

 

[canadyjd]

When Jesus refers to His sheep, He says He calls them by name, they hear His voice and follow Him and He loses none.

That is individual election of specific people.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

When Jesus refers to His sheep, He says He calls them by name, they hear His voice and follow Him and He loses none.

That is individual election of specific people.

Peace to you

Just to step in a second:

Why do you believe Jesus calling His sheep by name indicates the individual election of specific people?

 

[agedman]

I just cannot find “corporate election” evidenced in Scriptures.

What is evidenced is the repeated use of one to build.

Adam.
Noah
Abraham
The Christ.

With the exception of The Christ, each following member of the family was not “elected” but was included by birth.

Does not John remove “birth” as a automatic qualifier to belief?

Then how are the children (bride) to be included, by personally being chosen and in that choosing are adopted, “joint heirs” with Christ to the Father.

The Scriptures teach individual election with the specific purpose of God.

As Abraham was the father of a vast number in which one was to be brought forth as the Christ, so the Christ builds the kingdom to present the Bride to the Father.

No corporate election involved.

 

[Revmitchell]

When Jesus refers to His sheep, He says He calls them by name, they hear His voice and follow Him and He loses none.

That is individual election of specific people.

Peace to you

that has nothing to do with election

 

[canadyjd]

Just to step in a second:

Why do you believe Jesus calling His sheep by name indicates the individual election of specific people?

Because He calls them by name before they follow Him.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

that has nothing to do with election

And so we disagree.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Because He calls them by name before they follow Him.

peace to you

I'm not sure this is evidence against corporate election.

I always took this as presenting Jesus as the Shepherd. Shepherds have a group of sheep that are theirs.

 

[1689Dave]

The only corporate election I can think of presently was OT Israel. Gentiles could become Jews through circumcision and join God's special people. But it was purely physical and did not involve salvation.

 

[canadyjd]

I'm not sure this is evidence against corporate election.

I always took this as presenting Jesus as the Shepherd. Shepherds have a group of sheep that are theirs.

In the first century, shepherds would place their sheep in a common pen during the winter. When the shepherd came for His sheep, he would call them by name. His sheep, and only his sheep, would recognize his voice and follow him out.

Jesus used this well known fact as an analogy to Him calling His chosen people to salvation. It is a specific call to specific people (He calls them by name) and every person He calls recognizes and responds to this call. He loses none.

Those that are not His sheep will not recognize the call and will not follow Him. Just a few verses later Jesus tells the Jewish leaders they “do not believe because you are not of My sheep”.

He didn’t say they weren’t His sheep because they didn’t believe, He says they don’t believe because they aren’t His sheep. Those that are not among His chosen people will not follow Him.

peace to you

 

[Reformed1689]

Scripture requires the Election of Ephesians 1:4 to be corporate. Full Stop.

How in the world does that out of context verse show corporate election?

 

[JonC]

In the first century, shepherds would place their sheep in a common pen during the winter. When the shepherd came for His sheep, he would call them by name. His sheep, and only his sheep, would recognize his voice and follow him out.

Jesus used this well known fact as an analogy to Him calling His chosen people to salvation. It is a specific call to specific people (He calls them by name) and every person He calls recognizes and responds to this call. He loses none.

Those that are not His sheep will not recognize the call and will not follow Him. Just a few verses later Jesus tells the Jewish leaders they “do not believe because you are not of My sheep”.

He didn’t say they weren’t His sheep because they didn’t believe, He says they don’t believe because they aren’t His sheep. Those that are not among His chosen people will not follow Him.

peace to you

I get that part and am not arguing against individual election. But I can also see the passage as speaking to individuals who are elected based on being a part of the elect.

 

[kyredneck]

What are the arguments for and against corporate election?

Pronouns.

 

[canadyjd]

I get that part and am not arguing against individual election. But I can also see the passage as speaking to individuals who are elected based on being a part of the elect.

Edit for clarity:

The call is a general call in that all the sheep in the pen hear the voice of the shepherd. The call is a specific call in that only the chosen sheep recognize the voice of their master, He calls them by name, and respond by following Him.

So, in a sense, you can say the individual chosen sheep are called by name, individually elect, but make up a larger group and together they are corporately “elect”.

Bit the “call” is personal, individual, because Jesus calls us by name.

peace to you