Corporate Faith?

[SavedByGrace]

Your individualism is American. I guess Brits can be rugged individualists as well.
Your ignorance of covenantal relationship is very obvious.
We see this corporate, covenantal people, expressing faith in the verses shown in Hebrews 11. Feel free to ignore these verses if you cannot reconcile them with your worldview.

just HOW can personal faith, which is required for a sinners personal salvation, be in any sense, CORPORATE? Your reasoning is MOOT!

 

[Iconoclast]

Keep in mind Num11:4.
A mixed multitude came out.Not all had faith that was God given.

 

[AustinC]

just HOW can personal faith, which is required for a sinners personal salvation, be in any sense, CORPORATE? Your reasoning is MOOT!

You miss this because you place faith in the human heart before God saves them and thus you make faith a personal thing. But, faith is a gift, given to us, the children of God. It is a power from outside of us that enables us to believe. Thus, when God activates faith in the multitude of believers, it becomes an even greater conduit to the body of Christ. It is much, much stronger in congregation than it is individually. Therefore, by faith Israel went through the Red Sea. By faith Israel walked around Jericho. The strength of numbers as God brings faith together is so much more powerful.

But, you cannot grasp that power if you think faith comes from your self, not from God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

But, faith is a gift, given to us, the children of God

I ask again, if saving faith is a "gift" from God given only to a certain few. Then why would God Judge and punish those who do not have this faith, as is clear from verses like John 3:18?

 

[AustinC]

I ask again, if saving faith is a "gift" from God given only to a certain few. Then why would God Judge and punish those who do not have this faith, as is clear from verses like John 3:18?

Romans 3:22-25

For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Sir, all are damned because they justly deserve such damnation.
Any who are redeemed are saved by God's gracious will to save them and for no other reason.

Sir, you are asking God to reveal his will to you and tell you why He chooses to ever be gracious when what we really deserve is God's wrath.

I have no answer to why. I can only fall before God in amazement. He chose me? He extended His grace to me? Really? To me? A sinner whose heart is as black as coal and he chose me? How can this be?
If we are not blown away by God's amazing grace, then shame on us for belittling His loving kindness extended to us. Shame on us for thinking we played a part in our salvation so that we take from His glory to give some of it to ourselves. How awful the thought that I would ever claim I had a hand in my own salvation.
My salvation is by grace and grace alone. I am utterly amazed!

 

[unprofitable]

Indeed, there was a mixed multitude in Israel even as there is in the church today. This is evidenced by the many of the churches addressed by Christ in Revelation. This does not negate the doctrine of corporate salvation.

Where I attend, WE believe that the faith of Abraham spoken of in Romans goes back to the promises given to him in Gen 12:1-3. Verse 2 says, "I will make of thee a great NATION, and I will bless thee and make thy name great and thou shalt be a blessing. The Lord did not leave him in individuality.

Abraham brought forth two covenant seedlines/nations in the persons of Isaac and Ishmael. One was a spiritual seedline and the other a carnal seedline. The same is seen in the persons of Abel and Cain. This is true as it is in most all churches today. Cain also represents the violent carnal kingdom as the gates of hell persecuting the righteous spiritual kingdom. Christ addresses these two seedlines in John 8:31-59.

Both seedlines represent corporate seedlines. The "saved" spiritual seedline is represented by the remnant ancestry cited in Luke 3:23-38. The promises given to Abraham are corporate promises. Genesis 18:17 says, "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do. vs 18) Seeing that Abraham SHALL (predestined) become a great and mighty NATION (corporately in Gen 12:2), and all nations of the earth shalll be blessed in him (in Christ). vs 19) For I know him (The Lord knoweth them that are his) and he will command his children (corporate) and his household (corporate) after him, and THEY shall keep (perpetuity) the way of the Lord, to do judgment and justice, that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Christ accomplishes this revealing for his chosen servants as evidenced in him saying in John 15:15, "...All thing I have heard of my Father, I have made know unto you." (the kingdom in the midst as a church kingdom being revealed) This revelation is repeated in Ephesains 3:10 when it is said, ..."that it might be known by THE CHURCH (corporately) the manifold wisdom of God. This is the same knowledge the Lord revealed unto Abraham and his seedline.

Isaiah 54:17 says, "No weapon (gates of hell) that is formed again thee (bride without spot or blemish) shall prosper, and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment, thou shalt condemn. This represents Christ and his church kingdom spiritually having the greater understanding of judgment, mercy and faith of the new covenant in contrast to the Pharisees, etc judging under the law carnally or purely in individuality.

Isaiah 59:21 says, "As for me, this is my covenant with THEM (corporately), saith the Lord, my spirit that is upon thee, and my words that I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed (corporately), nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed (perpetuity) saith the Lord, from hence and forever. (predestined)

Each member must come to belief in Christ but a member separate from the body withers and yet the body lives on. (John 15:6.

 

[AustinC]

Indeed, there was a mixed multitude in Israel even as there is in the church today. This is evidenced by the many of the churches addressed by Christ in Revelation. This does not negate the doctrine of corporate salvation.

Where I attend, WE believe that the faith of Abraham spoken of in Romans goes back to the promises given to him in Gen 12:1-3. Verse 2 says, "I will make of thee a great NATION, and I will bless thee and make thy name great and thou shalt be a blessing. The Lord did not leave him in individuality.

Abraham brought forth two covenant seedlines/nations in the persons of Isaac and Ishmael. One was a spiritual seedline and the other a carnal seedline. The same is seen in the persons of Abel and Cain. This is true as it is in most all churches today. Cain also represents the violent carnal kingdom as the gates of hell persecuting the righteous spiritual kingdom. Christ addresses these two seedlines in John 8:31-59.

Both seedlines represent corporate seedlines. The "saved" spiritual seedline is represented by the remnant ancestry cited in Luke 3:23-38. The promises given to Abraham are corporate promises. Genesis 18:17 says, "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do. vs 18) Seeing that Abraham SHALL (predestined) become a great and mighty NATION (corporately in Gen 12:2), and all nations of the earth shalll be blessed in him (in Christ). vs 19) For I know him (The Lord knoweth them that are his) and he will command his children (corporate) and his household (corporate) after him, and THEY shall keep (perpetuity) the way of the Lord, to do judgment and justice, that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Christ accomplishes this revealing for his chosen servants as evidenced in him saying in John 15:15, "...All thing I have heard of my Father, I have made know unto you." (the kingdom in the midst as a church kingdom being revealed) This revelation is repeated in Ephesains 3:10 when it is said, ..."that it might be known by THE CHURCH (corporately) the manifold wisdom of God. This is the same knowledge the Lord revealed unto Abraham and his seedline.

Isaiah 54:17 says, "No weapon (gates of hell) that is formed again thee (bride without spot or blemish) shall prosper, and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment, thou shalt condemn. This represents Christ and his church kingdom spiritually having the greater understanding of judgment, mercy and faith of the new covenant in contrast to the Pharisees, etc judging under the law carnally or purely in individuality.

Isaiah 59:21 says, "As for me, this is my covenant with THEM (corporately), saith the Lord, my spirit that is upon thee, and my words that I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed (corporately), nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed (perpetuity) saith the Lord, from hence and forever. (predestined)

Each member must come to belief in Christ but a member separate from the body withers and yet the body lives on. (John 15:6.

This is for a totally different thread, not this one.

We are discussing faith and the work of faith by the corporate body of Christ. Please speak to this topic, not corporate salvation, which is false doctrine.

 

[percho]

Is it possible for the Church (either a local congregation or church universal) to have a corporate faith?

In Hebrews 11:29-30 we read these words:

It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.
It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.

Here the speaker says the people of Israel had faith. It is the only time in the chapter where all the people are commended for having a corporate faith.

Is it possible, as a covenant people, that we, the church, can have a unified faith to accomplish a God given task?

Was it, by, faith or was it, unto or to, faith ?

 

[percho]

I guess what I am asking is; Did they step through, to or unto, the following? And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, Gal 3:23,24 YLT

V 25 and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

 

[AustinC]

Was it, by, faith or was it, unto or to, faith ?

By faith.

 

[AustinC]

I guess what I am asking is; Did they step through, to or unto, the following? And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, Gal 3:23,24 YLT

V 25 and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

Percho, faith has always been faith. It has always been how people were justified.

 

[agedman]

Is it possible for the Church (either a local congregation or church universal) to have a corporate faith?

In Hebrews 11:29-30 we read these words:

It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.
It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.

Here the speaker says the people of Israel had faith. It is the only time in the chapter where all the people are commended for having a corporate faith.

Is it possible, as a covenant people, that we, the church, can have a unified faith to accomplish a God given task?

Perhaps our Lord spoke about similar thinking when He said, “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.”


Personally, I like the term “agreement between believers” rather then the corporate term, but that is of little importance.

Perhaps the word “covenant” between believers would be even better.

Do you think that Paul praising the local assembly concerning the gathering they made or the care they sent was preceded by the local assembly making a covenant to gather and bring relief?

Would another example be when the elders are called to anoint and pray?

Is the communion also a demonstration of this faith?

 

[AustinC]

Perhaps our Lord spoke about similar thinking when He said, “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.”


Personally, I like the term “agreement between believers” rather then the corporate term, but that is of little importance.

Perhaps the word “covenant” between believers would be even better.

Do you think that Paul praising the local assembly concerning the gathering they made or the care they sent was preceded by the local assembly making a covenant to gather and bring relief?

Would another example be when the elders are called to anoint and pray?

Is the communion also a demonstration of this faith?

Great questions and yes, the term corporate may be a loaded word that ends up being misunderstood.
The idea of a communal faith or covenantal faith may be better. In any case, I am struck by these two references to covenantal Israel having a unified nature to faith where all the other references are to individuals. I have read Hebrews 11 probably well over 100 times and never noticed this change of how faith is considered. What might be the purpose the speaker has in making that change?

 

[agedman]

Great questions and yes, the term corporate may be a loaded word that ends up being misunderstood.
The idea of a communal faith or covenantal faith may be better. In any case, I am struck by these two references to covenantal Israel having a unified nature to faith where all the other references are to individuals. I have read Hebrews 11 probably well over 100 times and never noticed this change of how faith is considered. What might be the purpose the speaker has in making that change?

.

There is a glimpse of this corporate thinking in Nehemiah.

Throughout the prayer of the people recounting all God has done from creation until the time they were offering their repentance and praise, the theme is how despite the despicable behavior of human kind, God is faithful.

When Joshua was grieving at the death of Moses, God repeatedly reminded Joshua that just as He had spoken to Moses, He would be with Joshua.

The confidence building as one grows in understanding and reliance upon God is seen by what you are describing. So “faith” is truly that substance and assurance, for what is promised of the future is born upon the proven work of God’s faithfulness even in our unfaithfulness.

My mind is not tracking well, so I must leave this as it is.

For the readers, God presents what may seem impossible along our journey that He my both show and prove His authority and majesty, that, in all our ways, we learn to trust, we learn to rely, and learn to express.

Just as the unlearned Israeli crossing on dry land, later had to be feed, and later plead for water, every believer must grow experiencially learning faithfulness to God.

 

[percho]

By faith.

Once again I know no Greek yet will ask

11:29 Πίστει διέβησαν τὴν Ἐρυθρὰν Θάλασσαν ὡς διὰ ξηρᾶς ἡς πεῖραν λαβόντες οἱ Αἰγύπτιοι κατεπόθησαν

Is the word, by, anywhere there or understood to be there? What about to or unto, is to or unto understood being faith is (dative)?

It has always been how people were justified. ------ Agreed! ---- Lets talk of being justified, made righteous.

Romans 5:19 NKJV For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Gal 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith.
Romans 5:9 NET Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God's wrath.

Now that obedience of one of Romans 5:19 was the obedience of Christ unto death even the death of the cross see Phil 2:8 which is also the, by his blood, of Romans 5:9 and three days later he was raised because of our having been made righteous Romans 4:25 YLT who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous. Raised up, that is highly exalted - Phil 2:9

The obedience of Christ unto shedding his blood, pouring out his soul unto death is the obedience of Faith. That is when, the faith, came, of Gal 3:23 by which we have been saved. IMHO the obedient death of Christ is the faith through which we were saved.

Eph 2:8 for by (to) grace ye are ( that is heirs, not yet inheritors, of the grace of life 1 Pet 3:7) having been saved, through (the) faith, ( that is, the obedient death of Christ, making us righteous) and this not of you -- of God the gift,

IMHO

 

[percho]

A short verse.

Have faith of God.

The Christ, the one man, that was obedient unto death, because of our sins, was raised because of out justification, and by the Holy Spirit was put in us. Have faith of God.

Christ in you the hope of glory.

 

[percho]

When the Egyptians stepped out on that dry land between the walls of water, was it to faith or to bring an end to things hoped for, things not seen?

Why did God call Abram? In thy seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.

The Scripture, foreseeing that God [fn]would justify the [fn]Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

Death and resurrection? the saving faith.

Have belief of God

 

[AustinC]

.

There is a glimpse of this corporate thinking in Nehemiah.

Throughout the prayer of the people recounting all God has done from creation until the time they were offering their repentance and praise, the theme is how despite the despicable behavior of human kind, God is faithful.

When Joshua was grieving at the death of Moses, God repeatedly reminded Joshua that just as He had spoken to Moses, He would be with Joshua.

The confidence building as one grows in understanding and reliance upon God is seen by what you are describing. So “faith” is truly that substance and assurance, for what is promised of the future is born upon the proven work of God’s faithfulness even in our unfaithfulness.

My mind is not tracking well, so I must leave this as it is.

For the readers, God presents what may seem impossible along our journey that He my both show and prove His authority and majesty, that, in all our ways, we learn to trust, we learn to rely, and learn to express.

Just as the unlearned Israeli crossing on dry land, later had to be feed, and later plead for water, every believer must grow experiencially learning faithfulness to God.

I was listening to John Piper, on Hebrews 11:1-3. He expressed that faith is seeing the evidence that the world cannot see. His illustration was of a 3D picture where you look at the picture and you cannot see a visible image, but if you keep looking past the image, a 3D hologram image shows up. He expressed that God given faith gives us the capacity to see the evidence of God's working that others cannot see.
What faith is not: It is not blind trust. That's what atheists accuse us of having. No, faith is seeing the evidence and believing it when the atheist cannot see the evidence. That's faith.

I thought Piper had some good insight on this.

 

[Van]

Is it possible for the Church (either a local congregation or church universal) to have a corporate faith?

In Hebrews 11:29-30 we read these words:

It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.
It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.

Here the speaker says the people of Israel had faith. It is the only time in the chapter where all the people are commended for having a corporate faith.

Is it possible, as a covenant people, that we, the church, can have a unified faith to accomplish a God given task?

Does "the people" mean "all the people" or might it mean "some of the people?" Were their no "unbelievers" within the nation of Israel? What does scripture say?

Deu 32:15
“But Jeshurun became fat and kicked—
You have become fat, thick, and obstinate—
Then he abandoned God who made him,
And rejected the Rock of his salvation.

 

[AustinC]

Does "the people" mean "all the people" or might it mean "some of the people?" Were their no "unbelievers" within the nation of Israel? What does scripture say?

Deu 32:15
“But Jeshurun became fat and kicked—
You have become fat, thick, and obstinate—
Then he abandoned God who made him,
And rejected the Rock of his salvation.

The people, to me, means the people of the promise. The collective group who were justified by the faith God had given them.
In the United States we saw that even the godless were blessed in this nation when the community of believers were revived during the Great Awakening.