Corporate&Individual Election

[Jarthur001]

Go all the way back to Isa 29:10-19 where ISRAEL is 'esteemed as the potter's clay.' Then Isa 41:25 where God brings the Assyrians on ISRAEL. Isa 64:8 -- "Thou [God] art the potter and we [ISRAEL] are the clay." On to Jeremiah 18 -- again ISRAEL is the clay. And now Rom 9 -- God is remarkably consistent, isn't He? He's talking about ISRAEL throughout!

skypair

Before I address the rest of your post, I need to be clear about this.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Jarthur001]

Go all the way back to Isa 29:10-19 where ISRAEL is 'esteemed as the potter's clay.'
skypair

Ok...

12 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Does a nation have eyes other then the eyes of mankind?
Is the nation as a whole a prophet, or are MEN prophets to the nation?
Does the land mass rule the nation, or does a man/lady rule a nation?

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:

Who delivered? men?
What voice did people hear in this verse? Was it the voice of the land, or the voice of a man that said..." Read this, I pray thee"

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Can a nations land learn to read, or do men in that land learn to read?

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this p

eople draw near [me]

with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Who draws near?
Is the mouth seen in verse 13 talking about the mouth of a river?
What land mass that you know has lips?
Can a land pay honor to you?
Is the word heart talking about the heardland?
Tell me, how does a land mass fear?
Precept of who?

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

Work among what? Land?
wise land?
prudent land?
Tell me how land hids itself.

15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

Them? Who is them? maybe the hills?
How does a hill seek?
What works does a hill do?
Who is the "us" in..."Who seeth us?"
Who is the "us" in..."who knoweth us?"

29 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Well....it does mean land......right?
:BangHead:

Game over SP. Stop twisting the Bible

 

[Jarthur001]

SP said..

Once again you master the dictionary but fail in your application.

OK teach me.

"Make your calling and election sure" means to prove that you were called to Christ and to His service.

I give you...Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 18

Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God: which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth, the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.

Likewise in Rom 8:30 -- "whom He did predestinate, He did call" -- means that in the course of time, those whom God foreknew and predestinated,

Foreknow....
Greek----proginosko made of two words... "pro" and "ginōskō"

Pro means before
ginōskō means know.

Know is not just knowing something, but ginosko means know is in love someone on a personal level. The same word is used in Matt 1:25

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This verse is not saying Joseph did not know mary, in know about her, or even know what she was like, but it means Joseph did not love her in a personal "lover" type relationship.

Therefore it is easy to see the meaning as Whom God fore-loved.

********
predestinate
from two greek words....Pro you know about and horizō
Look real close to at the word "horizō"
Do you see the english word?

horizon means about the same thing in English as greek. It means to set limits. The limit that you can see is the horizon.

God sets in place before hand, or determines before hand, or decrees before hand, or ordains before hand those that he fore-loves.

*********
summorphos ([to be] conformed) means.... "with form"

With form of what?

*********
Son.

Whom he fore-loved he also ordains beforehand with forms of image of Son.(god the Son)

Now does God know everything about everyone? Yes.

If we read it like many all would be saved. For God foreknows facts about us all.

But when we read it as we should, God foreknows...loves us before we love Him...and elects us to be like His Son.

Whom is the key word who. Whom does He foreknow? those that he elects and make like his Son. Again does God not know all? yes, but whom He foreknows (loves) He elects to be Sons.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

We cannot fight the word of God. God is molding us like clay for honor.

Who God has chosen to do this to isn't the way men have decided. Many have chosen themselves to be this clay, but the clay God has chosen for this is those who put thier trust in Jesus.

Doesn't God have the right to choose who He wants to.

You can believe God, if you put your trust in Jesus you will not be disappointed.

We can play with God's word all we want to, but God had the bible tranlated right, it is forknew just like the scripture was translated.

He first loved us the world when He gave His Son, and whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

 

[Rippon]

We cannot fight the word of God. God is molding us like clay for honor.

Rip: Men certainly try to fight the Word of God. You mean people can't win against the Word of God?
God is molding His elect for honor. However, He is molding the reprobate for dishonor. See Romans 9:21.

Ps. :Who God has chosen to do this to isn't the way men have decided. Many have chosen themselves to be this clay, but the clay God has chosen for this is those who put thier trust in Jesus.

Rip: You are hard to understand. Unregenerate folks do not decide to be clay in God's hands.
The Lord chooses who will be his clay for noble purposes. See Romans 9:20,21.

Ps. Doesn't God have the right to choose who He wants to.

Rip: Of course.That's just the Godness of God being evidenced.

Ps. :You can believe God, if you put your trust in Jesus you will not be disappointed.

Rip: People don't have the ability to believe in God on their own. The word can implies ability. The Lord will give faith to the ones of His choosing.

Ps. :We can play with God's word all we want to, but God had the bible tranlated right, it is forknew just like the scripture was translated.

Rip: No one has the right to play with God's Word. We have no right to twist it and tamper with it. If so certain doom is in store.
"God had the Scripture translated right."?If by that you mean that the Lord has superintended the various translations -- Yes.But some are better than others. Even the inferior ones He uses for His purposes.
I didn't understand :"It is forknew just like the Scripture was translated."

Ps. :He first loved us the world when He gave His Son, and whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

Rip: He first loved us is true.The us are His sheep, and no one else.Yes, it is true, those who believe on Him will be saved. Why do they believe? Because He seret His love on them and caused them to believe. See John 1:13 : "They are reborn -- not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God." ( NLTse )

 

[psalms109:31]

psalms109:31

God has decided who He will make for honor. He has decided to those who are in Christ.

When you were apart from Jesus, He did nothing for you. He has chosen those in Christ.

People limit the words of Jesus for it is Spirit and life.

The words of Jesus is more powerful than men think it is, it can do anything to a man.

It does not incline men to believe.

What it does do it places two roads before the world to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.

The elect is Jesus, your only hope is Jesus.

Jesus is the elect and those who remain in Him and those are God's chosen. This was decided before the foundation of the world

Your elect that yopu are saying is the Jews, but God cut them out not because they were not chosen, but for unbelief and praise be to God that He included us non Jews to the believing Jews when they heard the Gospel of thier salvation having believed.

Through the words of Jesus that we are messengers of whosoever can enter.

So don't worry if you are not the elect or not, just trust in Jesus and you can, don't lesson to men they will lead you astray and you will not be disappointed.

 

[skypair]

Before I address the rest of your post, I need to be clear about this.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Before I even look at your other responses -- ABSOLUTELY He does! And over the history of Israel He has! David's "lump" was unto honor -- Saul or Herod unto dishonor.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Does a nation have eyes other then the eyes of mankind?

Oh, ye of little faith! You ask if a nation has eyes and claim that your "elect" nation of Gentiles DO have eyes! "I will call a nation that is no nation." Isa 65:1

James, you are not even trying at this. The "clay" is not only a nation but a people and a religion. I don't know why you are introducing the idea of "land" except in blind anger.

Count to ten, take a deep breath, go back, and reread the passage. Clearly those to whom the "book is sealed" -- those who are "unlearned" -- those who "draw near with their lips" -- are ISRAEL! Unless you are trying to insert Calvies into the context! :laugh: Are YOU the "potter's clay??"

skypair

 

[skypair]

James,

"This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God:..."

Interesting. So what proof do you have of "adoption" which adoption really doesn't happen until was are raptured? And what are the "inward evidences of those graces" to which the WCF refers??

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it;..."

OOH! Now that is scarey! Does the WCF say that we can lose our salvation if we don't "preserve" it unless it is "revived???" What if is isn't revived?? Are we -- were we -- lost?

Whom is the key word who. Whom does He foreknow? those that he elects and make like his Son. Again does God not know all? yes, but whom He foreknows (loves) He elects to be Sons.

Well, the passage is certainly about BELIEVERS. The question really is "Does He MAKE them believe? OR do they believe on their own?"

What you are believing is kinda like "Russian roulette," isn't it? You THINK the "chamber" is "empty" -- I think the "chamber" is "loaded." Are you sure you are READY to "pull the trigger?" Based on what? I base what I believe on the Bible. You base what you believe on Calvinist interpretation. Go ahead --
pull the trigger."

Are you sure God "foreloved" you? That God "elected" you? Or would you rather look into His word -- the "chamber" -- before you "pull the trigger?" Who did you believe -- Calvin or God? Calvin says the chamber is empty -- God says that unless you CHOOSE, the chamber is likely loaded. There may be "another day" but there is no guarantee of that.

And I would supmit that YOU have done this but you are not teaching others good "firearms safety." :tear: You are likely telling them "No big whoop. If you understand Calvinism, you're safe. No one who does not understand Calvinism is lost but those who understand Calvinism -- well, that's the 'gospel.' You're safe."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Rip: Men certainly try to fight the Word of God. You mean people can't win against the Word of God?
God is molding His elect for honor. However, He is molding the reprobate for dishonor. See Romans 9:21.

You still don't get it, do you? The "clay" is Israel.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

God has decided who He will make for honor. He has decided to those who are in Christ.

Rip:Yes, He has long ago decided who are to be the objects of His mercy.

When you were apart from Jesus, He did nothing for you. He has chosen those in Christ.

Rip: When we ( the elect ) were yet apart from Him, in mercy He brought us close to Him.He has indeed chosen those who are in Christ.

People limit the words of Jesus for it is Spirit and life.

Rip: People limit and twist the words of far more Scripture than just the words of Jesus.

The words of Jesus is more powerful than men think it is, it can do anything to a man.

Rip: The Word of God :"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." (2 Tim.3:16 , NIV)




It does not incline men to believe.

Rip: Isaiah 55:11 says that the word of God will not return to me empty, but it will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. ( NIV )

What it does do it places two roads before the world to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.

The elect is Jesus, your only hope is Jesus.

Rip: Yes, Jesus is the original elect one.And yes, Jesus is the only hope for lost people.

Jesus is the elect and those who remain in Him and those are God's chosen. This was decided before the foundation of the world.

Rip: Agreed.

Your elect that you are saying is the Jews, but God cut them out not because they were not chosen, but for unbelief and praise be to God that He included us non Jews to the believing Jews when they heard the Gospel of thier salvation having believed.

Rip: No, the elect that I am talking about are both Jews and Gentiles.

Through the words of Jesus that we are messengers of whosoever can enter.

Rip: I'm not sure of wwhat you are saying here.

So don't worry if you are not the elect or not, just trust in Jesus and you can, don't lesson to men they will lead you astray and you will not be disappointed.

Rip:Yes, if one believes in Jesus one is elect.Don't "lesson" [ listen] to people. Unregenerate people will indeed lead one astray.But contrary to what you wrote -- they will indeed be disappointed.

 

[PK]

James,

Interesting. So what proof do you have of "adoption" which adoption really doesn't happen until was are raptured? And what are the "inward evidences of those graces" to which the WCF refers??

OOH! Now that is scarey! Does the WCF say that we can lose our salvation if we don't "preserve" it unless it is "revived???" What if is isn't revived?? Are we -- were we -- lost?

Well, the passage is certainly about BELIEVERS. The question really is "Does He MAKE them believe? OR do they believe on their own?"

What you are believing is kinda like "Russian roulette," isn't it? You THINK the "chamber" is "empty" -- I think the "chamber" is "loaded." Are you sure you are READY to "pull the trigger?" Based on what? I base what I believe on the Bible. You base what you believe on Calvinist interpretation. Go ahead --
pull the trigger."

Are you sure God "foreloved" you? That God "elected" you? Or would you rather look into His word -- the "chamber" -- before you "pull the trigger?" Who did you believe -- Calvin or God? Calvin says the chamber is empty -- God says that unless you CHOOSE, the chamber is likely loaded. There may be "another day" but there is no guarantee of that.

And I would supmit that YOU have done this but you are not teaching others good "firearms safety." :tear: You are likely telling them "No big whoop. If you understand Calvinism, you're safe. No one who does not understand Calvinism is lost but those who understand Calvinism -- well, that's the 'gospel.' You're safe."

skypair

shhhh!:sleeping_2:

don't bring up adoption, they might wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[Rippon]

Who did you believe -- Calvin or God?

You are lying again SP.You said long ago that you rarely bring up John Calvin, only Calvinism. You have repeatedly brought up his name. And of course you lie about him as much as you do about Calvinism. So why don't you just continue to misrepresent Calvinism rather than lie about John Calvin?You would still be in grave error, but less grave then lying about both. Do you have it in you?

As for me, I believe the Word of God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Rip:Yes, if one believes in Jesus one is elect.Don't "lesson" [ listen] to people. Unregenerate people will indeed lead one astray.But contrary to what you wrote -- they will indeed be disappointed.

I think you need to listen to your own advice to listen instead lesson. I can see why God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned.

There was many people who believed before they were regenerated, but you don't want to listen, you want to lesson me.

Those who trust in Jesus unregenerated will be regenerated and be saved, they will not be disappointed.