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Corporate&Individual Election
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
Dr. L.T. Ketchum
New Member
The Word of God does not tell us why God chose Abraham to be the father of the Nation of Israel. We can make a conjecture that Abraham individually was "elect according to foreknowledge." Nonetheless, Abraham's election was vocational and not salvational. You are probably correct, Abraham would have gone to Hell without God's intervention, but isn't that true of all of us. That fact has really nothing to do with election.J.D. said:What condition did Abraham meet in order to be elected as the father of God's people? If God had not intervened in Abraham's life, he would have gone to hell when he died. True?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Well Doctor, part of this we will all agree with. Without Gods intervention we would all go to Hell.Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:You are probably correct, Abraham would have gone to Hell without God's intervention, but isn't that true of all of us. That fact has really nothing to do with election.
But the fact is, God does intervene in some peoples lives and this intervention or as I call it, this election, leads to salvation. Yet it is also true that God does not always intervene in all cases and therefore some do indeed go to hell just as you have said above.
Are the elect angels just vocational? Was Christ just vocationally elect?Does election have nothing to do with having eternal life imparted to them? Has it nothing to do with being saved from His wrath? Does it have anything to do with the Lord distinguishing some of humanity with a special love relationship and all others having Hell as their destiny?
Not even close to what the bible says. I know several people who just want to deny the word elect is even in the bible, and then deny it's original greek meaning.No individual is elected to be saved.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Salvation
Sometimes we want to believe what we want to believe.
The scripture clearly teaches that the natural branches was cut out for unbelief. That we must continue in God's kindness or we also will be cut out. We are to make our election sure, by remaining in Christ and we are not to be arrogant, but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either, but we must keep in mind also if we remain in Jesus we have nothing to fear.
The scripture also teaches us if we did not abide in Jesus we are not good for nothing but the fire.
Salvation is not depending on what we can do, but we are depending on God through Christ to save us. We are depending on Jesus word, not our own.
So the truth if we don't want to believe it or not we must endure to the end to be saved.
If you are standing before Jesus saying Lord I did this and that you have already lost, because if you remain in Jesus you will not have to stand before Jesus.
I believe in individual election, but only the corporate will be saved.
Sometimes we want to believe what we want to believe.
The scripture clearly teaches that the natural branches was cut out for unbelief. That we must continue in God's kindness or we also will be cut out. We are to make our election sure, by remaining in Christ and we are not to be arrogant, but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either, but we must keep in mind also if we remain in Jesus we have nothing to fear.
The scripture also teaches us if we did not abide in Jesus we are not good for nothing but the fire.
Salvation is not depending on what we can do, but we are depending on God through Christ to save us. We are depending on Jesus word, not our own.
So the truth if we don't want to believe it or not we must endure to the end to be saved.
If you are standing before Jesus saying Lord I did this and that you have already lost, because if you remain in Jesus you will not have to stand before Jesus.
I believe in individual election, but only the corporate will be saved.
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I have before me B.B. Warfield's 1st volume of "Selected Shorter Writings".He devotes 13 pages to the subject of election.The following are some tidbits.
It is impossible that a believer in Christ should not be elected of God, because it is only by the election of God that one becomes a believer in Christ.Election is nothing but the preparation of grace, and grace is nothing but the loving operation of God unto salvation. Whenever there is salvation, then, there is of course, grace, since grace alone can save, and wherever there is grace there is of course election, since grace hangs on election. We need not, we must not, seek elsewhere for proof of our election: if we believe in Christ and obey him, we are his elect children.
Certainly it is equally true that where no election is, neither is there salvation. Since all the salvation there is, is of grace, and grace is of election, there is of course no salvation where there is no election.But this does not mean that election excludes from salvation. What election does all that election does, is to bring into salvation. It is not where it is, but only where it is not, that salvation fails. Wherever it is, there salvation is -- certain, for sure, complete salvation. Salvation is its sole work. When Christ stood at the door of Lazarus' tomb and cried, "Lazarus, come forth!" only Lazarus, of all the dead that lay in the gloom of the grave that day in Palestine, or throughout the world, heard his mighty voice which raises the dead, and came forth. Shall we say that the election of Lazarus to be called forth from the tomb consigned all this immense multitude of the dead to hopeless, physical decay?It left them no doubt in the death in which they were holden and to all that comes out of this death. But it was not it which brought death upon them, or which kept them under its power. When God calls out of the human race, lying dead in their trespasses and sins, some here, some there, some everywhere, a great multitude which no man can number,to raise them by his almighty grace out of their death in sin and bring them to glory, his electing grace is glorified in the salvation it works.It has nothing to do with the death of a sinner, but only with the living again of the sinner whom it calls into life. The one and single work of election is salvation.( pages 296,297)
It is impossible that a believer in Christ should not be elected of God, because it is only by the election of God that one becomes a believer in Christ.Election is nothing but the preparation of grace, and grace is nothing but the loving operation of God unto salvation. Whenever there is salvation, then, there is of course, grace, since grace alone can save, and wherever there is grace there is of course election, since grace hangs on election. We need not, we must not, seek elsewhere for proof of our election: if we believe in Christ and obey him, we are his elect children.
Certainly it is equally true that where no election is, neither is there salvation. Since all the salvation there is, is of grace, and grace is of election, there is of course no salvation where there is no election.But this does not mean that election excludes from salvation. What election does all that election does, is to bring into salvation. It is not where it is, but only where it is not, that salvation fails. Wherever it is, there salvation is -- certain, for sure, complete salvation. Salvation is its sole work. When Christ stood at the door of Lazarus' tomb and cried, "Lazarus, come forth!" only Lazarus, of all the dead that lay in the gloom of the grave that day in Palestine, or throughout the world, heard his mighty voice which raises the dead, and came forth. Shall we say that the election of Lazarus to be called forth from the tomb consigned all this immense multitude of the dead to hopeless, physical decay?It left them no doubt in the death in which they were holden and to all that comes out of this death. But it was not it which brought death upon them, or which kept them under its power. When God calls out of the human race, lying dead in their trespasses and sins, some here, some there, some everywhere, a great multitude which no man can number,to raise them by his almighty grace out of their death in sin and bring them to glory, his electing grace is glorified in the salvation it works.It has nothing to do with the death of a sinner, but only with the living again of the sinner whom it calls into life. The one and single work of election is salvation.( pages 296,297)
psalms109:31
Active Member
We are elected
All men have to be elected to be saved, that is why we go out with the words of Christ that was not His own but the Fathers. Through these words of the Father we are drawn, but that does not mean we can't walk away like the young rich ruler did.
We all agree to election, but election can't save anyone who walks away from their salvation.
All men have to be elected to be saved, that is why we go out with the words of Christ that was not His own but the Fathers. Through these words of the Father we are drawn, but that does not mean we can't walk away like the young rich ruler did.
We all agree to election, but election can't save anyone who walks away from their salvation.
psalms109:31 said:I believe in individual election, but only the corporate will be saved.
What in the world does that mean?Are you saying that all the elect together as one group? I'd agree with you there as awkward as it sounds. But it is true that each of the elect individually will be saved. There is no scriptural doubt about it.
psalms109:31 said:We all agree to election, but election can't save anyone who walks away from their salvation.
No, we do not all agree concerning election. Dr.K., for instance, contends election has nothing to do with salvation!!
Ps., no one can walk away from their salvation. If someone is indeed saved, he/she will never lose their salvation.His promises are irrevocable.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Promise
God promises to save believers and these are His elect.
We are to continue in His Kindness, because just as He cut out His natural; branches He will cut us out to.
If we walk away, we were never His in the first place. How we know who they are is those who remain in Him and love others as themselves.
The truth of the matter is if we disown him He will disown us. God is not like us He is faithful to do what His word say's He will do. God cannot disown Himself, so we must remain in Him.
To prove the words of our Father through Jesus. We must endure to the end to be saved.
God promises to save believers and these are His elect.
We are to continue in His Kindness, because just as He cut out His natural; branches He will cut us out to.
If we walk away, we were never His in the first place. How we know who they are is those who remain in Him and love others as themselves.
The truth of the matter is if we disown him He will disown us. God is not like us He is faithful to do what His word say's He will do. God cannot disown Himself, so we must remain in Him.
To prove the words of our Father through Jesus. We must endure to the end to be saved.
Citing that Warfield article on Election again.
It is folly, therefore, to fancy that a sincere lover of Jesus Christ who trusts in him as his Savior and lovingly obeys him as his Lord, can possibly lack the election of God. It is only because he is one of God's elect that he can believe in Christ for the salvation of his soul, and follow after Christ in the conduct of his life. This is precisely what election brings with it -- the calling to Christ which cannot fail, justification which frees us from our guilt, and sanctification which conforms us to Christ, and all that implies. It marks out those in the loving prevision of God whom his almighty grace shall raise out of their death in sin, to the powers of that new life in which and in which alone they embrace Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient Savior and live in and for him. ( page 296)
It is folly, therefore, to fancy that a sincere lover of Jesus Christ who trusts in him as his Savior and lovingly obeys him as his Lord, can possibly lack the election of God. It is only because he is one of God's elect that he can believe in Christ for the salvation of his soul, and follow after Christ in the conduct of his life. This is precisely what election brings with it -- the calling to Christ which cannot fail, justification which frees us from our guilt, and sanctification which conforms us to Christ, and all that implies. It marks out those in the loving prevision of God whom his almighty grace shall raise out of their death in sin, to the powers of that new life in which and in which alone they embrace Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient Savior and live in and for him. ( page 296)
psalms109:31
Active Member
Election
We have to be elected to be saved, but being elected does not save anyone.
Only those who endure to the end will be saved.
The elect before the foundation of the world is Jesus, many have been elected to salvation, but only those who endure to the end in Christ will be saved.
Being the elect will not save anyone. The Jews who are an example to us who was cut out not because they were not chosen but for unbelief.
So we are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either. Remaining in Jesus drives out this fear.
I can not put my hopes for salvation in how men interpret the scripture, but scripture.
My hope is Jesus not in election, Being the elect didn't help the jews and it will not help us.
The only hope in Scripture to be saved is to believe in Jesus and trust in Him. The very elect will be cut out for unbelief and praise God that He has included me in His salvation plan when I heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed.
So we know the believing Jews who were not cut out and us who believed the message and endured to the end in Christ , for it was not me that He has chosen by myself, but who He has chosen before the foundation of the world is Jesus and those who remain in Him to the end. The church the body of Jesus.
We have to be elected to be saved, but being elected does not save anyone.
Only those who endure to the end will be saved.
The elect before the foundation of the world is Jesus, many have been elected to salvation, but only those who endure to the end in Christ will be saved.
Being the elect will not save anyone. The Jews who are an example to us who was cut out not because they were not chosen but for unbelief.
So we are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either. Remaining in Jesus drives out this fear.
I can not put my hopes for salvation in how men interpret the scripture, but scripture.
My hope is Jesus not in election, Being the elect didn't help the jews and it will not help us.
The only hope in Scripture to be saved is to believe in Jesus and trust in Him. The very elect will be cut out for unbelief and praise God that He has included me in His salvation plan when I heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed.
So we know the believing Jews who were not cut out and us who believed the message and endured to the end in Christ , for it was not me that He has chosen by myself, but who He has chosen before the foundation of the world is Jesus and those who remain in Him to the end. The church the body of Jesus.
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I think this might help, rip --- you have put the terms in reverse order. Only some people are ELECT -- the SAVED.Rippon said:Only some people are saved -- the elect .
If only the elect are written in the "book of life," then explain Psa 69:27-28 for me: "Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."...they are the only ones whose names have been inscribed in the Lamb's Book of Life before time began.
Or Rev 3:5 -- "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,..."
Would it not seem that EVERY name is written there and then those who do not convert are blotted out?
skypair
The first point I would make is that the 'intervention' is named "calling," not "election."Jarthur001 said:But the fact is, God does intervene in some peoples lives and this intervention or as I call it, this election, leads to salvation.
But secondly, God 'intervenes' in EVERYONE'S life to the extent that they ought to know Him -- are "without excuse" at the judgment! But in our era, the verity holds that "to whom much has been given, much shall be required."
It is only in the "microcosm" of Calvinism where God's revelation of Himself is restrictive. Outside that little 'clique' He is omnipresent, manifested and glorified even in His great creation!
skypair
skypair said:The first point I would make is that the 'intervention' is named "calling," not "election."
But secondly, God 'intervenes' in EVERYONE'S life to the extent that they ought to know Him -- are "without excuse" at the judgment! But in our era, the verity holds that "to whom much has been given, much shall be required."
It is only in the "microcosm" of Calvinism where God's revelation of Himself is restrictive. Outside that little 'clique' He is omnipresent, manifested and glorified even in His great creation!
skypair
AMEN! Ps. 19 - Even a blind man can feel the warmth of the sun.
psalms109:31 said:God promises to save believers and these are His elect.
We are to continue in His Kindness, because just as He cut out His natural; branches He will cut us out to.
If we walk away, we were never His in the first place. How we know who they are is those who remain in Him and love others as themselves.
The truth of the matter is if we disown him He will disown us. God is not like us He is faithful to do what His word say's He will do. God cannot disown Himself, so we must remain in Him.
To prove the words of our Father through Jesus. We must endure to the end to be saved.
Kingdom Exclusion?
Dr. L.T. Ketchum
New Member
Warfield is both a Covenant Theologian and a soterological Calvinist. What would you expect him to say about election? It is his presupposition imposed upon Scripture based upon Aristotelian Syllogism (his theological methodology).Rippon said:Citing that Warfield article on Election again.
It is folly, therefore, to fancy that a sincere lover of Jesus Christ who trusts in him as his Savior and lovingly obeys him as his Lord, can possibly lack the election of God. It is only because he is one of God's elect that he can believe in Christ for the salvation of his soul, and follow after Christ in the conduct of his life. This is precisely what election brings with it -- the calling to Christ which cannot fail, justification which frees us from our guilt, and sanctification which conforms us to Christ, and all that implies. It marks out those in the loving prevision of God whom his almighty grace shall raise out of their death in sin, to the powers of that new life in which and in which alone they embrace Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient Savior and live in and for him. ( page 296)
The overwhelming Scriptural evidence is that election is vocational, NOT salvational.
Read Chapter Seven: [FONT=Castellar,serif]Election as Defined by the Hermeneutic Principle of First Mention
[/FONT]
skypair said:If only the elect are written in the "book of life," then explain Psa 69:27-28 for me: "Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Or Rev 3:5 -- "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,..."
Would it not seem that EVERY name is written there and then those who do not convert are blotted out?
Rip: No, that is decidely not the case. The names have been written before time began. Besides, the Lord gives faith i.e. He causes them to believe. He made that decree before the foundation of the world. The Lord does not wait on a puny mortal to "decide for Christ". No one would choose the Lord under their own frail powers.
The names of the reprobate were never written in the Lamb's Book of Life.Only the names of the elect were inscribed there.
God does not change. He's immutable. There is no possibility of names being erased or added to the roll of the elect."I will never blot out their names from the Book of Life." ( TNIV)
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:Warfield is both a Covenant Theologian and a soterological Calvinist. What would you expect him to say about election? It is his presupposition imposed upon Scripture based upon Aristotelian Syllogism (his theological methodology).
Ketchum is both a Dipensationalist and a soterological Arminian/Semi-Pelagian. What would you expect him to say about election? It is his presupposition imposed upon Scripture based upon faulty authors and philosophical ruminations ( his theological methodology).