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Correcting the Bible on the Fly

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mr Mike, Mar 1, 2005.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    My maps are not chaptered and versed exactly like Scripture as the Apocrypha in the AV First Edition.

    The KJV included the verses from the Apocryphal books in the daily Scripture reading supplied by the Church of England in the "Authorised" First Edition along with Scripture exactly as if they were Scripture.

    The KJV included verses from the Apocryphal
    books in the cross referencing of the margins of the First Edition along with Scripture verses exactly as if they were Scripture.

    Maybe it's tired, maybe it's old, but it's true and it's proof that the AV First Edition was the work of Anglo-Catholic, Church and State pado-baptist men who were still in bondage to some of the teachings of Rome in spite of what they said.

    HankD
     
    #61 HankD, Mar 3, 2005
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    AV1611 sect try to call the "inclusion" of the apocrypha by the Anglicans as a "cultural non-issue". Balogna.

    I have a 1611 full reprint and the apocrypha is included as part of "daily BIBLE reading", "daily devotions from God's Word", etc etc in the Anglican instructions.

    THEY accepted it and called it "scripture".

    Later revisions dropped the non-canonical books as they began to correct the dramatic translation errors in the AV1611. By 1762 Cambridge and 1769 Oxford revision, the errors were corrected and false writing eliminated.

    BTW, I didn't see any "maps" in the 1611. And I didn't see any maps in my 1769 (Scofield) that were called "scripture".

    Talk about a tired old non-defense . . [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #62 Dr. Bob, Mar 3, 2005
  3. Mr Mike

    Mr Mike New Member

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    Hey Jim, you said

    I went and looked up the verses you mentioned (thanks for keeping them to only a few... I don't have any bible software yet)

    NASB Is 16:6 We have heard of the pride of Moab, an excessive pride; Even of his arrogance, pride, and fury;

    This one didn't have the word overweening like you mentioned. I did compare this to the KJV translation, and happen to think that the NASB does a better job of using descriptive words.

    NASB Esth 1:6
    There were hangings of fine white and violet linen held by cords of fine purple linen on silver rings and marble columns, and couches of gold and silver on a mosaic pavement of porphyry, marble, mother-of-pearl and precious stones

    This was a tough passage to figure out. I went ot the strongs and it wasn't very helpful... almost all the words used for red, blue, black, white could all have different meanings... I think I need somthing with a little more powerful greek understanding.


    NASB Hos 4:13 They offer sacrifices on the tops of the mountains And burn incense on the hills, Under oak, poplar and terebinth,Because their shade is pleasant. Therefore your daughters play the harlot And your brides commit adultery.

    Wycliffe (1300); Coverdale (1539); YLT;actually have the same word used there. I also used my handy google to find out what a terebinth tree was... it just so happens that it is where turpintine comes from. Strongs says oak, elm or teal tree (teal being another word for terebinth). I'm curious to know what others think is the best translation of that greek word. Should it be elm, oak, teal or terebinth.. Anybody???


    1 Kings 4:22 Solomon's provision for one day was thirty kors of fine flour and sixty kors of meal.

    From reading the passage I can tell it is some type of measurement. However since it is a Jewish measurement, I wouldn't expect a Non-Jew to understand it. I would however hope that there was a place to go and find out what U.S. measurement equivalent was to 1 kor. I decided to try and found out what 1 kor was equal to and what 1 measure was equal to.
    Going to BibleResourceCenter - Measurements I found out that 1 kor is about 6 bushels (US form of measurement) I found about 2-3 sites relatively easy with this information using Google...

    Ok now I tried to find out what a measure was the only thing I could find ( I honestly tried my best using as many relevant search terms as possible) was this site av1611 - Definition of Measure which recognizes it as only a generic measurement with no specifics.

    Now lets say I'm teaching from the KJV and I come to this passage and say measures... Some inquiring mind named Jim asks "Whats a measure" well since I don't know what a measure is I go and do a search to no avail... but I always have my handy Strongs available ( never leave home without it ;) ) I open it up and see that the word there means kors or cors.... I then do a search and find that its equal to about 6 bushels. Now that is a fine way of doing it, but I could have save a lot more time if I had accurately translated it as kors rather than a genreic measure.


    Ok out of the 4 verses mentioned 3 had the change of word you said they did. Out of those three 1 was a type of measurement and the other 2 are scientific classifcations of plants and minerals/stones. I don't think that anyone who wanted a literal translation would want these to be washed over lightly.

    Jim you also said to my dismay...
    Look I never said I had a problem with my pastor. I love my pastor very very dearly. That man has more redeemable qualities in him than I could ever possibly hope to achieve. We are very good friends and I plan on maintaining that relationship. With that said, I have spoken to him on occassion about the subject, the problem is that he is terribly out of date on the subject and still brings up arguments that hold no water whasover. So rather than upset him and distract him from his main purpose, I have let it go in the past. Now God has never forced the issue on us. I honestly think that if God decided to uproot myself and my wife that he might use that issue. You know... during the normal course of the year all is at peace... its when someone comes from out of town and has to start saying stuff like "Funny Books" "Perversions" etc... that cause division and dissent. The rest of us are happy to agree to disagree. Another area that I'm concerned about is that when my wife and I decide to start having children. I plan on teaching my kids the truths about God's plan of inspiration and preservation. I will not have them using a King James translation until I feel they are able to get the most out of it. Until then I'll probably give them Living Bibles.. then NIV... Then NKJV ... and eventually a KJV or NASB. I'll let my brothers and sisters teaching sunday school as well as the Pastor ahead of time what I have taught my child and that I don't expect them to be taught lies and misrepresentations on the various translations. But like so many things... we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

    Sui Wei.. thats awesome to find someone else taking the FBI courses... I actually graduated last semester and am now going through it again. Brother John is a passionate teacher, and I really enjoy hearing him preach...err I mean teach... lol (inside joke). One day I hope to start the distance education Seminary program from Liberty University and work towards an MDiv. I'm still finishing up slowly but surely a masters in computer science at vcu by taking night classes via satelite.

    I'll have to disagree with what you said in the above statement.

    Expounding on the text should be going beyond what it says.. not saying what it says. In many of the examples I gave the word actually meant somthing different... The one most people liked was skirt. Well the word their does not mean skirt... you shouldn't have to tell your audience what the word skirt means if it is a normal term (i.e. not a scientific classification or measurement that is unique to some other culture). The word means edge of a garment, wing. Plain and simple thats what it means. If someone truly desires the most literal translation that needs as little as possible clarification, then they should want it to be translated that way. Now to expound on it is to say somthing like 'When Ruth says this, this reminds Boaz of his earlier words praising her for trusting God and coming under his wings'
    or 'This might picture a guy holding out the edge of his coat to keep the rain off of his wife or children during a storm.'
     
    #63 Mr Mike, Mar 4, 2005
  4. Su Wei

    Su Wei Active Member
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    hey, we too think his preaching, er, teaching is great too! I've learnt so much... so blessed and encouraged.
    I'm always intrigued by the laughing black guy who always sat in the front...

    okay, about the def of expounding. But those that you stated on pg 1... those aren't meaning anything different... ???

    And what are you saying, other versions are saying different things/meanings? (Which i'd agree, actually.)
     
    #64 Su Wei, Mar 4, 2005
  5. Mr Mike

    Mr Mike New Member

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    Sui Wei
    I can't think of the guys name right now, but Dr. Yates has mentioned it a few times. I think he used to work on the camera systems or somthing...

    Anywho....I listed the example of the skirt which is on page 1 and gave the reasoning behind it. Another that I don't have time right now to go into, is Gal 3:26
    KJV reads "children"
    Prof said " We are now the 'children' literally adult sons of God by faith in Christ
    NASB reads "sons"

    If you read this and the following verses in the KJV using the word children to mean believers, you can quickly become confused... and either way the word means adult sons...
     
    #65 Mr Mike, Mar 4, 2005
  6. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Scripture never had verse and chapter divisions until someone added them in. Can you believe it, the KJVO's have never spoken about that addition to the text?
     
    #66 gb93433, Mar 4, 2005
  7. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Pastor_Bob
    Whoops sorry my mistake, my listing of foot should be read as feet.
    Seriously considering another thread on this in the theology forum.
     
    #67 mioque, Mar 4, 2005
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    What!? They aren't inspired?

    HankD
     
    #68 HankD, Mar 4, 2005
  9. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo New Member

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    Wow, that shows how little you know of the topic at hand. The KJV is *not* riddled with errors. You seem to have some kind of bitterness toward a group or someone.
     
    #69 Spoudazo, Mar 4, 2005
  10. Mr Mike

    Mr Mike New Member

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    Well I went the past two nights to the mission conference. Thursday night NO CORRECTIONS, YEY!!! Friday Nursery Duty - need i say more :-(.

    jim and sui wei, what's your take on the replies i provided above...


    all... anyone else going to try this at services on sunday???
     
    #70 Mr Mike, Mar 5, 2005
  11. manchester

    manchester New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #71 manchester, Mar 5, 2005
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    [​IMG] manchester!!

    BTW, the Latin Vulgate, putting the Greek into user-friendly Latin that ANYONE can know and understand, is the true translation. For 1100 years it was unsurpassed and accepted as "Bible".

    Then those Reformers started translating, Tyndale, Geneva, Bishops, AV - all johnny-come-lately.

    ANY TRANSLATION MADE LATER THAN 500 CE IS SUSPECT!

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Dr. Bob
    qui credit in Filium habet vitam aeternam qui autem incredulus est Filio non videbit vitam sed ira Dei manet super eum
     
    #72 Dr. Bob, Mar 5, 2005
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Not in 1611 but words have changed meaning therefore it is no longer an accurate translation for today's reader.

    Take a look at

    Psal 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    Psal 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.
    2Cor 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
    Gala 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
    Ephe 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    Ephe 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    Phil 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
    Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
    1Tim 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation , in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
    Hebr 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    Hebr 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
    Jame 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
    1Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation ;
    1Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    1Pet 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
    1Pet 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
    2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
    1Pet 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
    2Pet 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    2Pet 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
     
    #73 gb93433, Mar 5, 2005
  14. Mr Mike

    Mr Mike New Member

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    The missionary who spoke tonight didn't correct any verses... in fact he read 4 verses and talked the rest of the time... Mind you not about the verses, but about had bad churches are today. In his talk he related MV's to "Comic Books" and "Readers Digest"... I ask those who are KJV Preferred... Is that right for him to say things like that about God's Word???
     
    #74 Mr Mike, Mar 5, 2005
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Mike - I would walk out if someone attacked a good translation of the Word of God like that. But that said, the missionary probably was taught this and believes this.

    Any church that would endorse such a speaker or doctrine I would also walk out and not look back.

    BTW, if a speaker got up in my church (we don't have a single person with a KJV revision or AV1611 in their hand) and started calling the AV/KJV "old" or "archaic", we'd all agree. But if they started to call it a "comic book" or other untrue statements, he would be stopped.

    Attacks on ANY good English translation per se are not allowed.
     
    #75 Dr. Bob, Mar 5, 2005
  16. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Mr Mike said:

    I recently read a post somewhere on this board that brought up the idea that most KJVo Pastors/Preachers correct the KJV translation on the fly while preaching without even realizing it.

    My own experience agrees with your little experiment: whenever "King James men" clarify the meaning of the KJV, more often than not their explication parallels the wording of the New American Standard. It's the best argument I've seen for sticking with my trustworthy NASB. Eliminate the middleman, that's my motto. [​IMG]
     
    #76 Ransom, Mar 6, 2005
  17. Su Wei

    Su Wei Active Member
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    Mr. Mike, I'll trust that the teacher's done his homework. And if i wasn't satisfied, i'd go and study some more and come to my own conclusions. I still won't use an MV (given their poor record and background) when i can use a good concordance or bible dictionary. (Sorry if that's too simplstic an answer for you. [​IMG] )

    I have to say, if you didn't know, there are "bibles" out there that ARE packaged as teens magazines!!! You haven't come across them? I saw one from a brother who bought a copy to show us how low they've gone.
    I can't recall the name of that bible now. promise to go check.

    But i'm not kidding. down to the paper quality, pictures and "hot tips" (which give the reader helpful hints on how to look and dress great/cool). You really have to give a second look to realise it's a "bible".

    What do you think of that?
     
    #77 Su Wei, Mar 6, 2005
  18. Su Wei

    Su Wei Active Member
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    check out a new Topic i started on Is this a bible.
     
    #78 Su Wei, Mar 6, 2005
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I agree there are some pretty groddy works out there that call themselves "Bibles"...but I place little to no value on the words of one such as that missionary who simply dismisses all MVs. People like him simply don't know what they're talking about, and I KNOW...not simply GUESS...that they're WRONG.
     
    #79 robycop3, Mar 6, 2005
  20. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Su;
    That "bible" you speak of can be found on the Christian Book Distributors website;
    It is called something like the "Rave Bible for Teens". I might have the exact name a bit skewed. But I have seen it. It is deplorable!!!

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
    #80 av1611jim, Mar 6, 2005
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