Correctness and Accuracy; Belief and Fact

[born again and again]

This is all religion. And it is all based on belief. Either you believe or you do not believe. It has nothing to do with objective fact, only subjective fact. Thus, when a believer calls something "fact", it really means that that person believes it. The so called "fact" is the "fact" of that person's belief. Religion is personal to the individual and his/her relationship with God has nothing to do with chruch doctrine or dogma, only his/her personal beliefs. When an individual rests his/her ability to understand, solely on the written texts of any particular religion, that person is setting the outer limits of her ability to make her own personal relationship with God. One should not cloak oneself with ignorance, but instead should encourage thought, debate and alternative sources of information. It is also very important to understand the basis for any credibility one attaches to any information source.
Always ask the question, "What is it about this particular text which tends to make the information contained therein reliable?" For example, the term, "Scripture" is typically used in the context of religion. It is merely a name or term that believers use to identify certain texts or writings, typically contained within either the new or old biblical texts. Using the term "Scripture" to dscribe such texts does not add or detract from their intrinsic value or credibility, however some individuals may tend to revere texts if they are identified as "Scriptures."
Such "Scriptures", although questionable as to their accuracy of portrayal of historical events, are generally given the most weight by individuals who believe them to be true. However it is those same individuals who are usually reluctant to apply objective tests of reliability to anything remotely related to their religious beliefs.
Always question the source of the information as well as the knowledge and motivation of the individual who tells you what is written authority and what is not written authority.

 

[guitarpreacher]

Personally, I avoid religion as much as possible.

 

[born again and again]

Well, it does appear that you read my piece, which is all about religion.

 

[mioque]

The use of religion as a code word to describe the sort of religious activities that the person who uses it disagrees is a bit silly.

 

[born again and again]

" . . . religion as a code word to describe religious activities . . ." I will try to figure out the meaning of that statement.

 

[mioque]

Quite simple.
Some Christians like to pretend that what they do in church is not practicing a religion. What everybody who does things a little (or a lot) different from them is doing religion. Religion is a dirty word.
That's why guitarpreacher gave the answer that he gave.

 

[born again and again]

Why is religion considered a dirty word? Aren't some religions better than others? Some worse? Isn't it really the individual who cloaks himnself in religious authority to legitimize his otherwise illegitimate or inappropriate purpose who brings the "dirty" to the dirty word religion.

 

[guitarpreacher]

mmm, actually, we don't do religious stuff at our church. Thanks for putting words in my mouth and assigning me motives though.

 

[born again and again]

I think I see what you mean mioque. I have met persons who swear that their beliefs are not religious, merely truths, facts which are unquestionable. It appears that their point is that if your religion is absolutely true and factual, then it is not a religion. Or do they only mean their religion?

 

[born again and again]

Of course it is possible to attend a church which is not faith based. The term "religion" refers to a faith based system of values. A church is a place or an organization which promotes the fostering of such values. Of course if one chooses to change the definition of "religion" it can mean whatever one wants it to mean.

 

[mioque]

guitarpreacher
But ofcourse you do religious stuff at your church. You sing, you pray, you play musical instruments, you preach/listen to a sermon during churchservices don't you?
You practice your religion when you do these things.

 

[mioque]

"Aren't some religions better than others?"
"
Yes.

"It appears that their point is that if your religion is absolutely true and factual, then it is not a religion."
"
A nonsensical claim if I ever saw one.

 

[born again and again]

Then what is the point made whereby an individual claims that his religious beliefs are not religious, but merely truths, facts which are unquestionable? Is the point that his belief's are not religious because they are true? Or is his point really that his religion is the only true religion and all other beliefs are false; all other religions false?

 

[steaver]

Hi there bornagain and again. You sent this very subject to me in a pm, but since I see it here I will respond to it here.

You said...

Always ask the question, "What is it about this particular text which tends to make the information contained therein reliable?"

Let's examine a part of the four gospels. These are testimonies written down about a man who declared he was from God, in fact the very Son of God, and the things he spoke. At the center of it all he declares that he will be crucified, buried and then be raised to life again the third day. The testimonies written declare that all he said had come to pass.

Can you tell me if it is true and why you believe this information is reliable?

God Bless!

 

[born again and again]

steaver, I have copied the message which I sent you as a response in the PM you sent me.

First of all, I do not get the impression that you are in any position to question my beliefs. Second, no one knows what Jesus said, as he never wrote anything down and neither did anyone who witnessed his actions. The stories therfore must have been handed down by word of mouth until someone (and no one knows who) wrote them down a couple of hundred years later. So if you base your faith solely on those writings, you are limiting your ability to ascertain God's truth. The phrase "(John 10:14) Spokn by Jesus Christ", really refers to the writings contained in the letters subscribed under the name of John, but written by someone as yet unidentified; and attributed to Jesus.

 

[hillclimber]

Religion is what man thinks he can do for God.

Christianity is what God has done for man.

 

[mioque]

In a corrected version.

Religion is what man does for God (even if God has no interest in it).

Dying on the cross is what God did for man.

 

[steaver]

Second, no one knows what Jesus said, as he never wrote anything down and neither did anyone who witnessed his actions. The stories therfore must have been handed down by word of mouth until someone (and no one knows who) wrote them down a couple of hundred years later.

Your title declares that you have been born again and again. Yet it is appearing to me that you do not know for a fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God nor that He was crucified, buried and raised again to life the third day.

If you do not know this as absolute truth then the term "born again" cannot apply to you for it is a term found in the gospel of John which John declares was spoken by Jesus. If you are not sure Jesus said you must be born again then how is it you declare that you are?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Also 'born again and again',

How can one be a disciple of Jesus Christ (Christian) and not know for sure what Jesus said?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This is not a "News / Current Events" thread - therefore it is moved to the "All Other Denominations" forum.