Could Christ Have Sinned? III

[Hobie]

The "realm" in which I am seeking and finding answers is the Word of God. As I said, reasoning from the Scriptures is a good thing (Acts 17:2, 17).

You seem to be reading your philosophical assumptions about divine omnipotence into my question about the human nature of Christ. You're welcome to go in that direction, of course, but it is incorrect to claim that I am arguing your "classic philosophical" speculation. I have made no such argument. I'm observing what Scripture says about Jesus in His first advent and drawing conclusions from it.

Well, if Christ could not sin, then there was nothing He could do to prove Satan wrong when he came in the flesh, as temptation was not possible.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[Tsalagi]

Well, if Christ could not sin, then there was nothing He could do to prove Satan wrong when he came in the flesh, as temptation was not possible.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

I fully agree. Why would Satan tempt the Lord Jesus for forty days if it was impossible for Him to yield to it, and why would the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into that situation if not to show the power of the Word and the Spirit to sustain us under pressure?

 

[SavedByGrace]

His choice to reject sin

heresy!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well, if Christ could not sin, then there was nothing He could do to prove Satan wrong when he came in the flesh, as temptation was not possible

shows that you don't really understand Biblical Christology!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I fully agree. Why would Satan tempt the Lord Jesus for forty days if it was impossible for Him to yield to it, and why would the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into that situation if not to show the power of the Word and the Spirit to sustain us under pressure?

moot reasoning! Why did satan rebel againt the Lord God when he was an angel in His presence, knowing that he most certainly would not win? Why will satan fight in the final Battle as taught in Revelation, aganing that he will not win? You simply do NOT understand Biblical Christology!

 

[Oseas3]

"God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19). Yet Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man, and He certainly was a man as well as being God.

Let's agree that God does not lie, and He does not change His mind (repent). In John chapter 7 Jesus tells His brothers He is NOT going up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Booths (John 7:8-9). But then He DOES go (John 7:10). Did He lie, or did He change His mind? Either way, what do you do with Numbers 23:19?

Keep in mind: JESUS did not lie, neither change His mind.

Context doesn't change the fact that Jesus said one thing and did another. To get at the point of the original question, let's set aside the possibility of a lie.

What makes you think Jesus could not change His mind? God commands all men everywhere to change their minds (Acts 17:30), so that action by itself is hardly a sin. Do you think it would be a sin for Jesus to change His mind about going to the feast in Jerusalem? If not, then what's the problem?

If Jesus' deity did not prevent Him from dying, why should it prevent Him from changing His mind?

Acts 17:29-31

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this IGNORANCE God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

See, Acts 17:v.30 is referring to the ignorance in "to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device".

So, what kind of ignorance do you intend to attribute to JESUS based on Acts 17: v.30, to justify your false interpretations and false testimonies?

Do you admit that Satan had dominion over JESUS, JESUS was overcome or subdued by Satan, the father of lie. John 8:v.44

Who is lying? JESUS or you? What is your answer?


JESUS doesn't need me to defend Him, of course. Why is so much difficult in to understand JESUS 'attitude? Is it necessary to insinuate He lied? Is it necessary by placing him in the pillory as you are doing insinuating that JESUS sinned? What evil! Only in think such a thing.

You see, the environment was, and presented itself, completely unfavorable for JESUS. The Jews wanted to kill him, they could no longer stand the presence of JESUS among them, even the own celebration of a great festival in Judea conspired against JESUS, there was a great expectancy if He would go or not to the feast, and He did felt with intensity all the malign/ evil/ demoniac/ satanic influence that hovered over the crowd there, that because of Him himself, do you understand?

Despite that gigantic turmoil in Judea (much worse than that happened in the US Congress), JESUS was in control of the situation and He knew very well what to do and what to say. Even His motherly brothers spoke to Him mockingly, they were envious of the popularity of JESUS throughout the nation of Israel, and outside Israel too. They knew that the Jews wanted to Kill JESUS, then when they said to JESUS mocking and challenging Him: "Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that you does, for there is no man that does any thing in secret, and he himself seek to be known openly. IF you do these things, shew thyself to the world", ah but JESUS knew the spirit of His motherly brothers, they were incredulous and did not believe in Him, so He said to them: "Go you, I go not up YET (FOR NOW) unto this feast", now, when JESUS answered His motherly brothers, He DECIDED to go not in that moment with His incredulous motherly brothers. JESUS meant to them: I know what I must do, it's not how you suggest me, it is not as you want me to do it, I know what to do, how to do it, and at what moment to do it, you go to the feast, I do not go with you, go you. When he had said these words unto them, He abode still in Galilee.(7:v.9) Yeah, He abode still in Galilee.

There are more about that TERRIBLE moment of the life of JESUS,
but that’s for the next message.

 

[Tsalagi]

You simply do NOT understand Biblical Christology!

I'm not inclined to take your word for that, since most of your arguments rely on personal attacks and SBG "emphasis" rather than a careful reading of the Word of God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm not inclined to take your word for that, since most of your arguments rely on personal attacks and SBG "emphasis" rather than a careful reading of the Word of God.

Believe what you like

 

[Tsalagi]

moot reasoning! Why did satan rebel againt the Lord God when he was an angel in His presence, knowing that he most certainly would not win? Why will satan fight in the final Battle as taught in Revelation, aganing that he will not win? You simply do NOT understand Biblical Christology!

You assume Satan had no chance of success in tempting Jesus. Read Daniel 10:13. Read Revelation 12:4.

 

[Tsalagi]

Believe what you like

Thanks, I don't need your permission for that. I think you are hoping to run the post count up in this thread so the inadequate biblical arguments and tacky personal attacks you posted will scroll safely away. No problem, we can always return for part IV of this discussion, hopefully with people better prepared to argue from Scripture.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Thanks, I don't need your permission for that. I think you are hoping to run the post count up in this thread so the inadequate biblical arguments and tacky personal attacks you posted will scroll safely away. No problem, we can always return for part IV of this discussion, hopefully with people better prepared to argue from Scripture.

I have better things to do with my time

 

[Tsalagi]

I have better things to do with my time

Rock on, brother - don't let me hold you up.

For those still following the topic, SBG calls it "heresy" to observe that Jesus chose not to sin. The Bible says Jesus has His own will independent of the Father's and that Jesus chose to fulfill the Father's will rather than His own (Luke 22:42, Hebrews 10:9). If Jesus had called twelve legions to deliver Him from death (which He said He could do, Matthew 26:53) it would have violated the Father's will as expressed in the prophetic Scriptures (Matthew 26:54). Clearly Jesus chose not to do what He could have done.

Heresy is defined as "an opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member." I don't think the observations above qualify for that label as a Baptist; maybe for a Catholic.

 

[utilyan]

You know who gives commandment for people not to sin........but actually wants them to sin so they can damn them "for his glory"?

LIARS DO.

Good thing God is not a Liar.

 

[Tsalagi]

You know who gives commandment for people not to sin........but actually wants them to sin so they can damn them "for his glory"?

LIARS DO.

Good thing God is not a Liar.

Or a Calvinist.

 

[Oseas3]

Thanks, I don't need your permission for that. I think you are hoping to run the post count up in this thread so the inadequate biblical arguments and tacky personal attacks you posted will scroll safely away. No problem, we can always return for part IV of this discussion, hopefully with people better prepared to argue from Scripture.

Keep in mind: JESUS did not lie, neither change His mind.

What makes you think Jesus could not change His mind? God commands all men everywhere to change their minds

(Acts 17:30), so that action by itself is hardly a sin. Do you think it would be a sin for Jesus to change His mind about going to the feast in Jerusalem? If not, then what's the problem?

If Jesus' deity did not prevent Him from dying, why should it prevent Him from changing His mind?

Acts 17:29-31

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this IGNORANCE God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

See, Acts 17:v.30 is referring to the IGNORANCE in "to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device".

So, what kind of IGNORANCE do you intend to attribute to JESUS based on Acts 17:v.30, to justify your false interpretations and false testimonies?

Do you admit that Satan had dominion over JESUS, JESUS was overcome or subdued by Satan? The father of lie. John 8:v.44


Who is lying? JESUS or you? What is your answer?


JESUS doesn't need me to defend Him, of course. Why is so much difficult in to understand JESUS 'attitude? Is it necessary to insinuate He lied? Is it necessary by placing him in the pillory as you are doing insinuating that JESUS sinned? What evil! Only in think such a thing.

You see, the environment was, and presented itself, completely unfavorable for JESUS. The Jews wanted to kill Him, they could no longer stand the presence of JESUS among them, even the own celebration of a great festival in Judea conspired against JESUS,
there was a great expectancy if He would go or not to the feast, and He did felt with intensity all the malign/ evil/ demoniac/ satanic influence that hovered over the crowd there, that because of Him himself, do you understand?

Despite that gigantic turmoil in Judea (much worse than that happened in the US Congress), JESUS was in control of the situation and He knew very well what to do and what to say. Even His motherly brothers spoke to Him mockingly, they were envious of the popularity of JESUS throughout the nation of Israel, and outside Israel too. They knew that the Jews wanted to kill JESUS, then when they said to JESUS mocking and challenging Him: "Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that you does, for there is no man that does any thing in secret, and he himself seek to be known openly. IF you do these things, shew thyself to the world", ah but JESUS knew the spirit of His motherly brothers, they were incredulous and did not believe in Him, so He said to them: "Go you, I go not up YET (FOR NOW) unto this feast", now, when JESUS answered His motherly brothers, He DECIDED to go not in that moment with His incredulous motherly brothers.

JESUS said flatly to His motherly brothers that moment did not fit for HIS PLAN in to go to the feast, understand? On the other hand, knowing that they were a stumbling block in His way, the company of them was inconvenient, for JESUS intended to go to the feast in secret, not openly as His motherly brothers suggested to Him. In fact, JESUS discarded them from His company or companionship.

JESUS meant to them: I know what I must do, it's not how you suggest me, it is not as you want me to do it, I know what to do, how to do it, and at what moment to do it, you go to the feast, I do not go with you, go you. When He had said these words unto them, He abode STILL in Galilee.(7:v.9)

Yeah, He abode still in Galilee, He stayed in Galilee for some time, JESUS discarded his unbelieving maternal brothers, He waited for them to go first, and then He would go in secret how had planned in His mind, to go to the Temple to preach the Word of God to the Jews, and whoever was in the Temple, evidently.

 

[Tsalagi]

Keep in mind: JESUS did not ... change His mind.

From Mark chapter 6:

47 And when evening {even} was come, the boat {ship} was in the midst of the sea, and He alone on the land.
48 And He saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them. And about the fourth watch of the night He cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.
49 But when they saw Him walking upon the sea, they supposed It had been a spirit, and cried out;
50 For they all saw Him, and were troubled. And immediately He talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
51 And He went up unto them into the boat {ship}; and the wind ceased; and they were very much {sore} amazed in themselves beyond measure, and wondered.

Jesus "would have passed by" the disciples, but when they cried out to Him He changed His mind and entered the boat.

 

[Oseas3]

From Mark chapter 6:

47 And when evening {even} was come, the boat {ship} was in the midst of the sea, and He alone on the land.
48 And He saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them. And about the fourth watch of the night He cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.
49 But when they saw Him walking upon the sea, they supposed It had been a spirit, and cried out;
50 For they all saw Him, and were troubled. And immediately He talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
51 And He went up unto them into the boat {ship}; and the wind ceased; and they were very much {sore} amazed in themselves beyond measure, and wondered.

Jesus "would have passed by" the disciples, but when they cried out to Him He changed His mind and entered the boat.

Also it is written: John 6:v.16-21

16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

JESUS passed not or did not go beyond the boat because he did not need to, and not because he changed his mind, understand? See, JESUS was walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: The disciples had SEEN JESUS walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

We can do nothing against the Truth, but for the Truth. 2 Cor. 13:v.8

 

[Tsalagi]

John 6:v.16-21
JESUS passed not or did not go beyond the boat because he did not need to, and not because he changed his mind, understand? See, JESUS was walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: The disciples had SEEN JESUS walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

In Mark 6:48 the Greek verb is θέλω (thélō, to will, to wish, to intend) in the imperfect tense: literally, "He was intending, wishing, purposing to pass them by." But then He didn't.

Is Mark wrong?

 

[Oseas3]

In Mark 6:48 the Greek verb is θέλω (thélō, to will, to wish, to intend) in the imperfect tense: literally, "He was intending, wishing, purposing to pass them by." But then He didn't.

Is Mark wrong?

It is you who Judge, as you judge JESUS. You meant John is wrong?

 

[Oseas3]

Context doesn't change the fact that Jesus said one thing and did another. To get at the point of the original question, let's set aside the possibility of a lie.
God commands all men everywhere to change their minds (Acts 17:30), so that action by itself is hardly a sin. Do you think it would be a sin for Jesus to change His mind about going to the feast in Jerusalem? If not, then what's the problem?

If Jesus' deity did not prevent Him from dying, why should it prevent Him from changing His mind?

Let's agree that God does not lie, and He does not change His mind (repent). In John chapter 7 Jesus tells His brothers He is NOT going up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Booths (John 7:8-9). But then He DOES go (John 7:10). Did He lie, or did He change His mind? Either way, what do you do with Numbers 23:19?

The main subject here in this topic is about what you wrote above, saying: "let's set aside the possibility of (JESUS lie) a lie. You said more: Did He lie, or did He change His mind?

Again, you did not answer the questions yet:

Acts 17:29-31

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this IGNORANCE God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

See, Acts 17:v.30 is referring to the IGNORANCE in "to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device".

So, what kind of IGNORANCE do you intend to attribute to JESUS based on Acts 17:v.30, to justify your false interpretations and false testimonies?

Do you admit that Satan had dominion over JESUS, JESUS was overcome or subdued by Satan? The father of lie? John 8:v.44

Yeah, what kind of IGNORANCE do you intend to attribute to JESUS based on Acts 17:v.30,
to justify your false interpretations and false testimonies?

Who is lying? JESUS or you? What is your answer?