Could someone explain?

[A_Christian]

I agree, Jesus was the SECOND ADAM; however, that in no way makes Mary the SECOND EVE. Mary was not born without sin. GOD didn't need Mary to be sinless in order for Jesus to dwell inside her---no more than you have to be sinless for the Holy Spirit to dwell in you!

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
I agree, Jesus was the SECOND ADAM; however, that in no way makes Mary the SECOND EVE. Mary was not born without sin. GOD didn't need Mary to be sinless in order for Jesus to dwell inside her---no more than you have to be sinless for the Holy Spirit to dwell in you!

We don't say it was neccessary. Only that it is fitting. And it is true. So what is your point.

A_Christian,
Now, rather than sliding on to the next fallacy why don't you answer my previous rebuttal. Was Mary the Mother of God or not. Was she the "Mother of MY LORD" as Elizabeth said when prompted by the Holy Spirit or did the Holy Spirit and Elizabeth lie? This thread can go nowhere else with you unless you are willing to submit to the plain words of Scripture. I know it makes you tremble to have to admit that Catholicism has the correct interprutatoin of one verse, though you know that you don't have it all right or you would have to embrace the Catholic dogma of infallibility. Do you submit or do you persist in your obvious error?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
...Reedemer like Christ...All powerful like Christ...

Just making it up as you go along, Bob?

Tell me, do SDA's consider false witness to be a sin or a virtue if it is used against Catholics?

 

[faithcontender]

Hi Thessalonian,

Mary is the mother of God in the sense that Jesus who was conceived by her, is God. But Mary is not the mother of God in the sense that Jesus did not take the divine nature from her but only of His humanity.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by faithcontender:
Hi Thessalonian,

Mary is the mother of God in the sense that Jesus who was conceived by her, is God. But Mary is not the mother of God in the sense that Jesus did not take the divine nature from her but only of His humanity.

Now we're getting somewhere. You agree with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church never had claimed that he got his divine nature from her. He was "concieved by the Holy Spirit". Thus his Father was/is throughout eternity God. God provided him with his divinity that had existed throughout all time. It is a part of whom he is. Just as our earthy father's provide a part of who we are and that does not make the Mother any less of our mother or not a mother of that part of us. Tell me, does a man get his soul from his parents or from God?

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Thought,

Up above someone said that it takes away from time thinking about God by thinking about Mary. A_Christian has just agreed that in the proper sense of the phrase Mary is the Mother of God. Contemplating this does not take away from God but helps us to understand who he is. Being the Mother of God does not make Mary God, it makes God man (yet of course still God). It is proof that God became man (the incarnation) rather than God walking around in a form or a vision as the burning bush.
Blessings

 

[Stephen III]

To expound a bit further, in the case of Jesus being God and Mary being Jesus's mother. (Hence the logical expression as Mary being the mother of God.)
The flesh that Jesus was to incarnate ONLY derived from Mary (well, and her ancesters as she inherited it). Joseph was not involved in the conceiving of Jesus. It follows than, that of the hypostatic union between the divine nature of God with the human nature, It was Mary's flesh and only Mary's flesh that provided this human nature aspect.
Mary's flesh was provided as becoming the representation of mankind in this hypostatic union.
When we as humans are born; we are the fleshly result of the union of our parents and we derive our flesh from this union. In the case of Jesus' incarnation, his flesh is solely provided from Mary as the union was between spirit (the Holy Spirit) and woman (Mary).
In this, we can also see that as Jesus suffered through His passion and His human nature died and was resurrected (as His divine nature is eternal)than it was in a UNIQUE way that Mary's own flesh (a flesh and bones distinctive SON, and a direct of her own flesh) participated in the crucifixion, death and resurrection. Perhaps this is why it was foretold to her that a "sword would pierce" her soul as well. It doesn't make her divine but in this unique way it can surely be said that she participated in His suffering, death and resurrection.
Just my thoughts
God Bless

 

[faithcontender]

How about the other titles ascribed to Mary?

Mother of the Church,
Virgin most powerful,
Seat of wisdom,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs,
Queen of prophets,
Queen of apostles,
Queen of martyrs,
Queen of confessors,
Queen of virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
Queen of families
Queen of peace

I believe some of them refers to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Gate of heaven - Jesus Christ

Jn
10:9 I am the door : by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jn 14: 6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Comforter of the afflicted - Holy Spirit

14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide with you for ever; 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Ray ...

I see the problem now. I went back and checked the postings just to make sure that I see it correctly. You posted a response which seems to make the YOM KIPPUR ceremony the same as the rites for individual. I must insist that they are not and that even if the people of the covenant came and offered their own offerings during that time, YOM KIPPUR was a distinct and separate corporate offering that only the high priest performed.

 

[thessalonian]

Faithcontender,

Are any of those items on the list God? If the Ark of the Covenant were right here before us would you bow down in worship (interestingly enough the Jews bowed down before it in Joshua 7 though they were not worshipping it). If I call Christians light of the world, even though Jesus tells us he is "the light of the world" am I somehow calling all Christians God? If I say prophets and apostles are the foundation of the Church is this calling them God because Jesus is called the foundation in 1 Cor 3:11. I hope not or Eph 2:20 is false. The items in your list help us to understand in a tangible way who God is. But you forget something very important. We are being molded in his image. Paul says "we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is". To be like him means that we will posses some qualities of God. Namely holiness, sinlessness (for "nothing unclean shall enter"), understanding, wisdom, etc. etc.. If you would like I can go down the list and prove that in calling Mary each one that it does not make her God. We can quibble over whether they are appropriate for her but they do not give her divinity even though they help us to understand divinity. One question for you: Did Jesus lower himself to become man or did he become man to raise us up? Give it some thought and let me know.

Blessings

 

[faithcontender]

Hi Thessalonian,

Are you telling me that Jesus is not the only way to heaven?

How can Mary became the gate of heaven?
Please show us from the Scriptures.

How can Mary become the comforter of the afflicted? Where in the Bible?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Are Catholics trying to purport that Mary is the gold rectangular box called the Ark of the Covenant?

In Leviticus 16:1-2 it is Jesus Who ' . . . appeared in the cloud on the mercy-seat.' This is what we call in theology a "Preincarnate appearance of Christ." That's why no one but the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies and that with the blood of the sacrifice. Lesson: One lesson is that Jesus is absolutely holy.

There is nothing in the Word of God including this passage that faintly suggests that Mary is symbolically represented as the Ark of the Covenant. To say this is a long, long S T R E T C H of the imagination. It is a little like saying Moses had on that day a brown robe with a white belt at the waist. Essentially, an argument from silence. We don't know this. Neither do we know that Mary was/is represented on any Ark of the Covenant furnishing in a Catholic Church. A stretch of the imagination and an argument from silence. And if it is an argument without Biblical documentation, we, of course, reject it as being error.

If our Lord wanted us to believe that symbolically Jesus was nurtured in the body of Mary via the illustration of the Ark of the Covenant, Almighty God would have had it dilineated in the Scriptures, either in the O.T. or the New.

God wasn't backward in telling us that it is He--Jesus who is represented at the mercy-seat which is on the Ark of the Covenant. As to the mother of Jesus, we read nothing as I read the holy Scripture. It was a clever thought, however.

 

[Ray Berrian]

faithcontender,

I agree with you. With so many grand titles God would have known that Catholic types would run to worship at her shrine.

Their church must have had a run on the same words, because my Bible calls Jesus 'the bright and morning star.' I think your list called Mary the 'Morning Star.'

I kind of settled in on Revelation 22:16. Without doubt, Jesus called Himself by this title.

Ray

 

[thessalonian]

"Are you telling me that Jesus is not the only way to heaven? "

Now why would I say that. I most certainly am not. But tell me, do we participate in helping others get "saved". Does God work through men or just do it all himself? If he by grace brought Peter and thus salvation to Cornelius then was not Peter an instrument of Cornelius's salvation, though Peter was not the cause of the salvatoin? Peter coming to Cornelius was the grace of God otherwise it was not God alone by grace alone that saved Cornelius. So you see it is not neccessary to set up this false dichotomy you have created for yourself, God or Mary. God brought salvation to the world through Mary. This salvation of course was Jesus Christ. This was all done by his grace.


"How can Mary became the gate of heaven?"
Please show us from the Scriptures.

How about if I just give you Luke 1. Read it all beginning to end.

By bringing Jesus in to the world, i.e. giving birth to him, she was the gate of heaven for us.
For if she had said no to the Angel Gabriel's request, the gate was still closed. Would God have opened it in a different way. Moot point. He didn't. Of course it is no less Jesus as the gate of heaven but not another gate but the same one. You guys are so limited in your scriptural thought and you talk like we are a bunch of zombies following a Pope.

"How can Mary become the comforter of the afflicted? Where in the Bible? "

Again, Mary by her prayers to God can attain for us, just as I can attain for you by intercession 1 Tim 2:1-4, the grace that Jesus Christ attained for us on the cross. Do you deny that others can pray for you and attain grace for you. This grace can comfort. Thus she can be comfort to us, but not another comforter but a means of bringing the one comfort to us through her intercession.

Do you agree with A_Christian that Mary is the Mother of God above. See our discussion before you answer.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
faithcontender,

I agree with you. With so many grand titles God would have known that Catholic types would run to worship at her shrine.

Their church must have had a run on the same words, because my Bible calls Jesus 'the bright and morning star.' I think your list called Mary the 'Morning Star.'

I kind of settled in on Revelation 22:16. Without doubt, Jesus called Himself by this title.

Ray

Ray, how are you doing in your battle to make that false God of your United Church of Christ (of which you were a pastor for many years) which denies the Orthodox Christian view of the trinity, to the real God of the Bible. The trinitarian God. Or is it a battle for you at all?

By the way Ray, do you see yourself as the light of the world? Oh ye blasphemer but your worldly judgement. Though I certainly would not consider you the light of the world.

Blessigns

 

[thessalonian]

Ray,

When you make these off the wall statements that have no bearing on what Catholic teaching is, do you do it to "win us over" out of love or simply to make fun of what we believe in a childish manner, mocking and picking as my sub teenage children do? I am just asking because from where I am sitting it sure looks alot like the second option.


Blessings

 

[faithcontender]

Absolutely right, Ray!! They deny that Mary is God but they gave her titles that belongs only to God. Why they make it more complicated.

If Mary is just like one of us, what's the need for special attention?

If they don't want it to be called idolatry why they make it appear like it is?

This is because like the Devil who transformed himself to an angel of light, they make their doctrine to appear that it is truth not lies.

Why? to deceive many. Sorry for the offense. God is my witness if i'm telling the truth.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by faithcontender:
Absolutely right, Ray!! They deny that Mary is God but they gave her titles that belongs only to God. Why they make it more complicated.

If Mary is just like one of us, what's the need for special attention?

If they don't want it to be called idolatry why they make it appear like it is?

This is because like the Devil who transformed himself to an angel of light, they make their doctrine to appear that it is truth not lies.

Why? to deceive many. Sorry for the offense. God is my witness if i'm telling the truth.

Your definitely not the "light of the world".

Now there I go again, trying to give a title to man that God gives himself.

What a sad state of affairs Protestantism is. Minds shut tight.

Blessings

 

[Ray Berrian]

faithcontender,

As you well know the Apostle Paul speaks of men who would come after his demise who would claim to be true messengers of the Gospel, even trying to transform themselves into angels of light. [II Cor. 11:13-15] And since the Roman Catholic Church likes to think of themselves as being the first church, Paul must have meant people like them. Paul picks up the same message in Galatians 1:8 by saying, 'But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you, than that which we have preached unto you,let him be accursed.' The word 'accursed' is the Greek word {anathema}meaning, banned, or excommunicated from their fellowship. I think the Mennonites call it 'shunning.'

Any Church that teaches that salvation is other than justification by faith [Romans 5:1] faith plus nothing should be shunned. A little false teaching leavens the whole Christian world.

And to our quasi-christian antagonist, Mr. Thessalonian, I wish to say, "Yeah, I really sound like a liberal, Protestant minister of the church." Whenever, have you heard mainline denominational preachers revel in the deep things of God, like I do?"

 

[faithcontender]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by faithcontender:
Absolutely right, Ray!! They deny that Mary is God but they gave her titles that belongs only to God. Why they make it more complicated.

If Mary is just like one of us, what's the need for special attention?

If they don't want it to be called idolatry why they make it appear like it is?

This is because like the Devil who transformed himself to an angel of light, they make their doctrine to appear that it is truth not lies.

Why? to deceive many. Sorry for the offense. God is my witness if i'm telling the truth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your definitely not the "light of the world".

Now there I go again, trying to give a title to man that God gives himself.

What a sad state of affairs Protestantism is. Minds shut tight.

Yes! Jesus is the light of the world that shine on me. Without Him, I can do nothing. Because of Him, I'm saved forever more. To Him be the glory forever and ever.

Because of His light in me, He took me, my family, my friends, my relatives, my co-workers, my classmates and my countrymen out of our sinful lives and from the "ERROR OF CATHOLICISM" which blinded our minds for many years.

Now we're happy serving God and free from the bondage of "Catholicism". PRAISE His Holy NAME!!!