Could someone explain?

[Frogman]

How could it be claimed after their death? The difference in the beleiver and the Jew is that the believer believes Christ was raised from the grave for his/her justification. The Jew beleives he was stolen during the night. Sometimes we must live by simple child-like faith. Now, I read somewhere there has never been a bit of the corspe of Mary found, and this is because of the 'assumption' is that correct? So, is this putting her in the same place as Christ? The Bible does speak of the Resurrection and ascending of Christ, why not a mention of Mary's assumption? I mean if it is important for the children of God to approach God through the mother of the Son of God, why not mention that she was assumed in order that we could make our petition to Christ through her? It all sounds nice, and I am sure Mary was a great person, but come on, to believe Scripture teaches of a pre-existent Mary by catechizing the types of Christ into types of Mary...this is idolotry.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Stephen III]

Frogman:

How do you conclude Mary's words in John 2 are a 'message from Mary' She did not at that time say 'Jesus is the way the truth and the Life' Jesus said that of himself.

My bad, I didn't mean to imply that she did say that. I should have started a new paragraph after I wrote that she said: Do as my son says. When I re-read the post I spotted the error but it was too late to change it. The small box you type in started a new line but not a seperate space to denote a paragraph, sorry for the confusion... I guess quotation marks could have been of some help as well...

Oh well..

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
"Convenient. We'll leave off the fact that you're predating the Cult of Mary by a couple of centuries, and just look at this interesting fact: Nothing was written concerning the "sanctity" of Mary while she was alive. Well, nothing was written about the sanctity of my 2001 Grand Am in the apostolic era, either."

I'm looking through the NT to see if anyone writes about the sanctity of Jesus before he died and having a little trouble finding a verse (though I see there are a few after he died). I am sure the Jews would have the same reaction to this as you ("convenient"). If someone were without sin their whole life how could this be claimed before they died?

Funny enough, Jesus Himself spoke of His sanctity and divinity before He died and rose, and the writers of the New Testament made note of it. So bada-bing, it's in da Bible.

Which, once again, is more than I can say for Marian theology. You know, of course, that this is my point.

 

[Stephen III]

Which, once again, is more than I can say for Marian theology. You know, of course, that this is my point.

I believe that would be Maryology -the study of Mary. as opposed to Theology- the study of God.
Or was that some kind of intended (and for the thinner skinned -offensive) Freudian slip.

 

[neal4christ]

but I think what is meant by silence is not personal silence, but presenting the argument from the silence of Scripture on a matter.

Exactly! Thank-you, Bro. Dallas.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Accuses me of avoiding the hard questions (as he did before) and then says he does not assassinate my character. I have a limited amount of time and so do not answer everything presented to me on these boards and you feel free to poke at my character as some sort of a coward (which is what started this whole mess).

YOU are the one that started the discussion about Romans 8:24, hope and salvation, etc.! Good try, though. I still fail to see how I assassinated your character. Did I ever call you a coward? Huh? Please, tell me, did I? It is not like I called you a bigot, relativist, misrepresent your words, make fun of you, etc.! Yes, I have planks in my eye, but you have them just as well, and that is what I am calling you on. You go around condemning Protestants when you are just as guilty for doing the things they do (argument by association, misinformed info, etc.).

And please, since you are so set on Protestantism being relativistic, tell me, who decided to believe what you believe? Who is responsible for your beliefs? Are not the teachings of the church YOUR opinions now? I am no more a material relativist than you are, my friend. Bottom line, each one of us are responsible for ourselves and OURSELVES only. Like it or not, you have used your brain to assess claims and decide which ones you will believe, just like me.

So if that makes me a relativist, fine. Hop on the boat with me, my friend. I believe in ONE absolute truth, not a bunch of conflicting claims that are all equally valid. I do not claim to have apprehended all of this truth, and anyone who claims they have is sorely mistaken.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

I apologize if I have misrepresented your beliefs in any way. Though of course up above you have taken the liberty to do the same of me.
"If silence is your measure stick".

Umm....bit of a difference, Thessalonian. See, the word "if" is introducing a conditional statement. I don't recall seeing any conditional statements from you, just statements of what I "said."

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

I see now you feel justified in calling me a relativist above. Perhaps a bit of consistency is lacking in your posts or does my perceieved error give you license in your own mind to do the same.

According to what I percieve is your definition of relativism, then you appear to fall in that category. I personally do not believe you are. But please notice, I did not call you a relativist. I said, "Talk about relativism." It was pointing out the inconsistency on your part and how you definition will work against you. Please show me where I called you a relativist above.

In Christ,
Neal

[ October 09, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Stephen III:
Frogman: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How do you conclude Mary's words in John 2 are a 'message from Mary' She did not at that time say 'Jesus is the way the truth and the Life' Jesus said that of himself.

My bad, I didn't mean to imply that she did say that. I should have started a new paragraph after I wrote that she said: Do as my son says. When I re-read the post I spotted the error but it was too late to change it. The small box you type in started a new line but not a seperate space to denote a paragraph, sorry for the confusion... I guess quotation marks could have been of some help as well...

Oh well.. </font>[/QUOTE]that is ok, if you read my posts you will wonder why I am not published, if you continue reading them you will know.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> but I think what is meant by silence is not personal silence, but presenting the argument from the silence of Scripture on a matter.

Exactly! Thank-you, Bro. Dallas.

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Your welcome, glad I ould help.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Dallas,

You said, ' . . . to believe Scripture teaches of a pre-existent Mary by catechizing the types of Christ into types of Mary...this is idolotry.'

Ray is saying, 'Does the Catholic Church teach what you said above? I didn't know that was their belief. So the typeologies of Christ in the O.T. are attributed to Mary? Interesting. I guess we are not too wrong when we say that Mary has a very, very high place in their religion. Would one of our Catholic friends tell us if this is your official position?

Blessings . . .

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Here is a sample of what the OT contains that forshadows Mary:

The burning bush (Ex 1)
The tabernacle
The Pot of Manna (ex 16)
The Rod of Aaron
The Golden Censer
The Ark of the Covenant
The Gate of Ezekiel
Jacob's ladder

And a bit of an explanation can be found at:
http://www.stgeorgechurch.org/uploadfiles/Other%20Pamphlets/04-Symbols%20of%20Saint%20Mary%20in%20the%20Old%20Testament.pdf

There of course is much more.

Blessings

Page two, this thread.

 

[thessalonian]

 

[thessalonian]

Frogman

Perhaps you could have Ray present his trinitarian theology for you since he is a United Church of Christer which does not to my knowledge believe in the trinity. Tell me, then do you think that if he denies the trinity he is worshipping a false God? He has done his best to look like an orthodox Christian but keeps avoiding the fact that he belongs to the UCOC.

By the way, seeing Mary in those types does not mean that we do not see Jesus in those types. Quite the contrary. He is the ultimate fullfillment of them. We, being molded in his image are too an anti-type of them to a degree. Mary, having remained free from sin and having carried the savior in her womb was complete in his image and likeness. That does not make her God. It just makes her prepared to share in the heavenly home that he has for her, where she as the Queen Mother interceeds to her son for her children. The verse you gave about the Holy Spirit above groaning when we don't know how to pray is comparing apples to oranges. Paul tells us that intercession is a good thing in 1 Tim 2:1-4. That is the context of our prayers to Mary. We do not just pray to Mary and so our prayers for ourselves and others are the context of of the verse you cited. I pray in many ways and ask prayers of those saints on earth as well as those in heaven. Further you made a comment above that implied that we had to pray to Mary. Noone has ever told me that if I don't say another rosary I am going to hell. Further, I do not need prayers to Mary to currently keep me out of hell if I died. If I died right now and were not in the state of grace (saved) prayers to Mary would not save my eternal soul. I would need the grace of Christ to wash that sin from my soul in the sacrement of confession. Prayers are only of any use if we are in a state of grace. Perhaps you should get yourself a Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it before you try to expound on the errors of Catholic theology. As your looking a bit foolish from my perspective.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Frogman,

One more thing about Ray. My guess is your a trinitarian loving baptist. You might want to be a little careful about being too buddy buddy with Ray since he belongs to the United Church of Christ and to my understanding they aren't real fond of trinitarian belief.

 

[thessalonian]

Neal,

I am simply not going to waste my time with you any longer.

Blessings

 

[Frogman]

Dear thessalonian,
I would also expound to Bro. Ray in the same way were he to discuss his beliefs. I would even bet I would look foolish to him as I do to you. BTW, I also believe that if I did read the Catholic catechism I would still look foolish to you.

I do not base my beleifs on whether or not I look foolish to someone, anyone. The fact that you have Mary intercede on your behalf is foolish. The Bible declares there is but one mediator between God and man---and does not leave this open---it identifies Jesus Christ.

Now, if I look foolish to you that is your perspective as you say and means nothing to me as it does not affect me.

As I said, this is the 'other religions/doctrines board, if Ray wants to discuss his beliefs and they are as you claim, I will look foolish to you and him both.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

here is what you said:

Paul tells us that intercession is a good thing in 1 Tim 2:1-4. That is the context of our prayers to Mary. We do not just pray to Mary and so our prayers for ourselves and others are the context of of the verse you cited. I pray in many ways and ask prayers of those saints on earth as well as those in heaven.

Here is what Paul said:

 ¶I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2  For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Here is what you left out:

5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Same Book, chapter, just the next verse. What good would a Catholic Catechism do me?

Where in the first four vss. does Paul say pray to anyone in heaven?

Where in vs. 5 does Paul say anyone in heaven is a mediator other than Christ Jesus?

Bro. Dallas

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Frogman:
here is what you said: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Paul tells us that intercession is a good thing in 1 Tim 2:1-4. That is the context of our prayers to Mary. We do not just pray to Mary and so our prayers for ourselves and others are the context of of the verse you cited. I pray in many ways and ask prayers of those saints on earth as well as those in heaven.

Here is what Paul said:

 ¶I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2  For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Here is what you left out:

5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Same Book, chapter, just the next verse. What good would a Catholic Catechism do me?

Where in the first four vss. does Paul say pray to anyone in heaven?

Where in vs. 5 does Paul say anyone in heaven is a mediator other than Christ Jesus?

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]I am well aware of v. 5 but you play a little slight of hand here. You claim that because we see someone in heaven possibly interceeding for us that that is mediation and there is only one mediator. Yes, Jesus is the meditor between God and man. Amen to that. It is through his mediatoin that we can interceed for eachother. Though in a sense intercession is mediation also but we can only mediate through Christ who mediates the new covenant exclusively himself with the father. Now somewhere in that verse you see Paul saying "only interceed for others while you live". I just don't see that text anywhere in there. Are we somehow separated from the body of Christ when we go to heaven? (romans 12, 1 Cor 12). And somehow you expect me to believe that when I die and am in heaven I am just going to sit back and watch my kids go to hell if they are on that road, feeling helpless. I certainly can't imagine forgetting about them. My guess is that if I am in heaven I can ask Jesus for grace for them to help them change their ways. It is interesting that before my mom, a very devout woman, died my dad was a bear and forbid her from going to Mass on weekdays. Now a few years later he goes to daily Mass himself. My guess is there was a little interceedin goin on up there.

With regard to Ray, I am just telling you to be a bit cautious. The enemy of an enemy is not neccessarily a friend.

Blessings

 

[Frogman]

Ok. Let me first say that I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist. This means that I beleive Christ came into the world to seek and to save that which is lost. Having said this I will not disagree with at least two points made in your post: 1. Paul does not specifically say to intercede only while living. 2. An enemy of an enemy is not necessarily a friend.

Is there any place in the Bible that teaches you that once being delivered into heaven that you will possess sadness, remorse, or any such emotion? Because I have three children, now if I were to die and do enter into heaven today, how am I going to be happy seeing the evil of this world and the sins of my children?

There is another place the Bible teaches it is appointed unto man to die, and after this the judgement. Having lived my life I have no chance in the after life to repent, I think you make this point well in a previous post in speaking about the need to die in Grace. Now, would it be true that having no opportunity to repent myself, I can likewise not intercede on behalf of anyone yet alive?

There has to be much more than 2 Tim. 2.1-4 that would cause a believer in the living God through His only Begotten Son to accept as truth such intercession. But even were there, the cannot simply set aside that only Christ is able to make intercession, I believe the Bible says he makes intercession.

Having the Son of God as my mediator, I have access to the Throne of Grace. There is no need for me to seek any kind of access by any other.

Because I am landmark Baptist I believe only in a local visible assembly of the church. This local visible assembly is made up only of immersed believers. Because of this then those of the family of God now in the presence of God are no longer making intercession on behalf of the church. The passage in Rev. 5 I believe that Carson gave to me the other day also cannot be made to say the saints are directly prayed to.

Bro. Dallas

[ October 10, 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]