Could someone explain?

[Carson Weber]

Hi faithcontender,

How can Mary be without sin when He said that God is His Savior.

You mean, "she said" and "her Saviour". Mary was conceived without sin due to God's saving power. She was saved in a more perfect way than you or I, for we have to endure the consequences of Original Sin whereas she didn't. Who was saved more? Mary or us?

Hi John,

The teaching that Mary is holy is contrary to the historic liturgy of the church.

Which liturgy?

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:

Hi John,

The teaching that Mary is holy is contrary to the historic liturgy of the church.

Which liturgy?

Your traditional mass for one: http://www.truecatholic.org/masstrad.htm. Scroll down to the Gloria.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
mary was conceived without sin due to God's saving power. She was saved in a more perfect way than you or I, for we have to endure the consequences of Original Sin whereas she didn't.

Prove it. One Scripture.

 

[faithcontender]

How can Mary be without sin when He said that God is His Savior.

You mean, "she said" and "her Saviour". Mary was conceived without sin due to God's saving power. She was saved in a more perfect way than you or I, for we have to endure the consequences of Original Sin whereas she didn't. Who was saved more? Mary or us?

You don't understand what salvation really is. Salvation is for those who need it. For us who are sinners. If Mary had no sin then she doesn't need salvation for she is already perfect. The mere fact that she was saved by God is a confirmation that she was once a sinner. For

Jesus said :

"The son of man was came to save and to seek that which was lost."

That is the reason why you need to accept that you are a sinner and lost so that you can see the salvation of the Lord. Mary understood it than you do when she said God is her saviour.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Someone said, 'The Bible records no sin of Mary.'

The Lord God did not need to focus in on the fact that Mary had sin like every other human being, because the Word from God Himself says in I John 1:8 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' Here He is dealing with the Adamic nature of human beings, and I take it that you believe that Mary was also humankind. Then God speaking through the Apostle John says that 'If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.' [I John 1:10] And unless you think Mary is co-God, she also had a sin nature and also might have had a few venial sins on her record, that needed forgiveness from Christ. And if you agree that she {your blessed Mother} was a human being like us, then you would not want to make her say she had no sin, thereby making the Lord a 'liar.' [I John 1:8 & 10]

You said, ' . . . says she was "full of grace".

I concur with you that Mary was a virgin and a very special lady in all areas that we might elevate womanhood.

You said, 'To be full of grace is to be absent of sin for their is no room for sin in a grace filled soul.'

Ray is saying, 'I might suggest that you are probably a grace filled soul; when we trust and continue to believe in Jesus as our Savior, all of His people are grace filled. This does not mean that we are flawless. We as believers should strive to be like our Lord. Matthew 5:8 says, 'Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.' The only soul who has ever lived on this earth without an Adamic Nature, is Jesus Christ our Divine Lord and Savior.

If the mother of our Lord did not succumb to physical death, then God is a liar where He tells us in Scripture 'And it is appointed unto men {humankind} once to die, and after this the judgment.' John the Baptist, Jesus cousin, passed through death; Mary received no special dispensation as some may think. Again, if the Bible, which is His words to us, does not say there was an Assumption of Mary into Heaven then it never happened.

Mary, the mother of our Lord, John the Baptist and all Christians are saved, forever, when we place our faith in Jesus, as Mary said she did, in Luke 1:46-47. Hear the words of the mother of Jesus. 'And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord; and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.' Neither Jesus nor Mary established Mary as a co-redemptrix, but rather she willingly bows before the Lord, yielding her will and spirit to Him for His spiritual watch-care.

When all of God's people are justified by faith, [Romans 5:1] the Lord God looks at us through the atonement of Jesus, our Savior. That's why John 3:16 is the truth rather than a lie.

 

[Ray Berrian]

faithcontender,

You said, 'If Mary had no sin then God will not gave Mary grace. Since grace is exercise by God toward them who are sinners.'

Ray is saying, 'You have made a wise statement when you said in effect that Mary would not have needed the grace coming from Christ if she always was indued with His grace. The fact that the mother of our Lord acknowledged her son was also her Savior, clearly suggests her dependence on Jesus for her hope of eternal life.

All Christians should agree that Mary is the ' . . . blessed one' [Luke 1:48d] and we should all agree that St. Luke said, that Jesus was and remains the greatest [vs. 32a] and that it is He Who will reign in His Kingdom forever. [vs. 32]

Mother's Day is an excellent Sunday in which to preach about Mary and her investment of life in the Person of her son and our Son, and how she is a great example of motherhood. An understanding of Mary should affect Christian mothers in our generation.

 

[faithcontender]

Hi Ray,

That's right Ray we agree on these things. Only those who want to push their man-made doctrine will say that Mary is not a sinner like all of us.

Mariolotry is an abominable doctrine of man. The Lord Jesus Christ foreknew these man-made doctrine that's why she was so careful in dealing with His mother.

He never give her pre-eminence in the church. He otherwise said: "He who the do will of God is my mother and my brethren".

All that the catholic church ascribed to her are but a product of imagination nowhere in the scriptures to be found.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

You said, ' . . . for we have to endure the consequences of Original Sin whereas she didn't.'

Ray is saying, 'Being involved in a theological education you probably will recall that part of the curse that we all acquire through Original Sin, is that the man has to labor for a living, [Genesis 3:23] and that the woman will suffer in childbearing. [vs. 16] Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit [Luke 1:35] and her birth was a natural human birth. How then could you say, 'We have to endure the consequences of Original Sin, whereas she didn't.'

I hope no one is looking, but once again you have 'egg on your face.' '

 

[faithcontender]

You are again right Ray. The mere fact that Mary offered sin offering after the days of her purification, is a strong evidence that she is also a sinner just like ordinary woman who bore a child.

Luke
1:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

This is from Leveticus:

12:6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: 12:7 Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.

 

[Ray Berrian]

faithcontender,

You said, about Leviticus '12:7 Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath
born a male or a female.'

I never caught that spiritual truth before, but I have it now via you. You are correct. It seems that her offered atonement to the priest was not only because 'the issue of blood' from Mary's childbearing, but also because of her sin. The Bible says, to 'make an atonement for her and . . . '

Excellent point!

 

[faithcontender]

Hi Ray,

Thank God for His Words. Praise God for the light of the scriptures. It is very obvious from the Scriptures that Mary is just like one of us. Her blessedness speaks of God's grace to her. That's why she has all the reason to magnify the Lord and rejoice in God her Saviour.

Romans.
4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Her blessedness speaks of God's lovingkindness. God is the only one to be praised forever and ever!!! Not Mary or any other person whom God had chosen to be a channel of His grace.

 

[CatholicConvert]

All that the catholic church ascribed to her are but a product of imagination nowhere in the scriptures to be found.

Oh, its in there.

You just cannot see it. Maybe because you don't wish to, or maybe because you haven't been trained to, but it is in there.

You have to do some exegesis of the scriptures, beginning with Adam and Eve and the plan of God for the ages.

Once you master that, you will see that the Blessed Virgin is just as much a part of the New Covenant as the Lord Jesus.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

You wrote, "Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit [Luke 1:35]"

Where's the stake and the rope?

I certainly hope you meant "Jesus" and not "Mary".

Say what about eggs and my face??

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

I stand corrected, I meant to say that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.

Ray

 

[Frogman]

Jesus Christ is not the son of Mary. He is the Son of God.

'...a child is born a son is given' A son is given. He is the eternal Son of God. He cannot be the son of Mary. This is the same problem the unbelieving Jews had. Hear them? "Is this not the carpenter's son?"

No it is not, He is the only Begotten Son of God.

Now, Scripture does support that.

Bro. Dallas

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Jesus Christ is not the son of Mary. He is the Son of God.

'...a child is born a son is given' A son is given. He is the eternal Son of God. He cannot be the son of Mary. This is the same problem the unbelieving Jews had. Hear them? "Is this not the carpenter's son?"

No it is not, He is the only Begotten Son of God.

Now, Scripture does support that.

Bro. Dallas

If Christ be not made of a woman, made under the law, He can not save us (Gal.4:4).

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ.
The Athanasian Creed

 

[Carson Weber]

Jesus Christ is not the son of Mary. He is the Son of God.

We've got... a Nestorian.

Get the rope and the stake!

And someone call the supply company, we're running out of ropes and stakes over here.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Jesus Christ is not the son of Mary. He is the Son of God.

'...a child is born a son is given' A son is given. He is the eternal Son of God. He cannot be the son of Mary. This is the same problem the unbelieving Jews had. Hear them? "Is this not the carpenter's son?"

No it is not, He is the only Begotten Son of God.

Now, Scripture does support that.

Bro. Dallas

Umm Dallas,

Elizabeth, prompted by the Holy Spirit says. "how is it that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come unto me." Luke 1:43.

It says just before this passage that Elizabeth was "filled with the Holy Spirit". Does the Holy Spirit lie. Are these somehow not the words of God himself spoken through Elizabeth that you feel you can take the liberty to deny what is plain and true?
How does this diminish in any way his being the only begotten son of God. He was fully God and fully man. That he was the Son of mary speaks of his being fully man. The son of God his divinity. Now he was the stepson of Joseph, entrusted to his care until he started his ministery. But that does not diminish Mary's motherhood.

Blessings

 

[Frogman]

Yes thessalonian, Mary is the mother of this child who has been born, yes this is truth, but of Him it is said "A son is given". Yes he is fully man. But no part of his humanity has or did rule over any part of his Diety.

Luke

Luke 2:42  And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43  And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44  But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45  And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46  And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47  And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48  And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Note the sorrowing, is this obedience to his 'parents'?

Now note the answer:

49  And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50  And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51  And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

Was he in submission to them as parents? yes. Was this submission above his eternal Sonship? No.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi faithcontender,

You don't understand what salvation really is.

Of course I do. I would propose that you can't see outside the box.

Salvation is for those who need it.

And Mary needed it. She received it.

If Mary had no sin then she doesn't need salvation for she is already perfect.

Your first premise is at fault, for Mary had no sin precisely because of her preservative redemption.