Could the Lord jesus ACTUALLYhad been Able To Sin?

[Gabriel Elijah]

I understand and as I stated earlier I am not totally convinced of my own belief as to how this works because there is not enough information although I do lean this way. I do take a stand that He did not literally feel the desires of temptation because of James 1:14. as well as because I just do not believe that gritting His teeth and not doing the temptations while desiring them as we do many times would have left Him sinless..
So i hold it was real temptation, but without the feelings of desire to do them. I don't believe He ever felt to have immoral relations or any other desire we have.

I can see where you would say that his temptations were different than ours—simply b/c we don’t have the ability to turn stones to bread (at least I personally don’t), or it was not the Father’s plan for me to suffer His full wrath on the cross so I would not ever have to ask if there was another way, but I’m still trying to see how we could have a high priest who truly relates to us if the temptations were not real.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

If you study the pasages you would see that the cup he wanted to pass from him was not the cross, He wanted to make the cross. His whole ministry and life revolved around His doing the Fathers will and the cross was that will.

I agree---but that does not negate a temptation (ie from Satan or even his own thoughts) to not go through with it (thus asking for another way or even the strength to make it through). Temptation itself is not the sin, acting on the temptation is.

 

[revmwc]

Hey-I agree--but how is this negating temptation? And even more importantatly how is it that Matt 4:1 says he was driven by the Spirit to b tempted by Satan in the wilderness, if he never faced real temptation

We are shown a few of the temptation but I believe not all that Satan threw at Him. He was tempted through out His life don't you think there were many times you wanted to tell His disciples how stupid they were? But He didn't. He felt temptation but temptation is not sin. We are all tempted by something and sometimes we are able to resist the temptation and that is not sin, giving into tempatation is sin.

 

[revmwc]

I agree---but that does not negate a temptation (ie from Satan or even his own thoughts) to not go through with it (thus asking for another way or even the strength to make it through). Temptation itself is not the sin, acting on the temptation is.

So how do you think he was tempted in the Garden?
Since His prayer was not dealing with the cross or His death on it?

 

[Jon-Marc]

Jesus had one advantage over us in that He was also God. He did not give up being God when He became human. Although I do not believe He had a sin nature, I do believe He could have given in to sin had He chosen to do so. However, without a sin nature, that possibility was very slim.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

We are shown a few of the temptation but I believe not all that Satan threw at Him. He was tempted through out His life don't you think there were many times you wanted to tell His disciples how stupid they were? But He didn't. He felt temptation but temptation is not sin. We are all tempted by something and sometimes we are able to resist the temptation and that is not sin, giving into tempatation is sin.

I'll even add to your argument that the present participe in Lk 4:2 means that there were more temptations from Satan. And I sill agree word for word on everything else--where is it that we differ (except where i think he was tempted in the Garden & u dont) besides that I feel like were saying the same thing?

 

[revmwc]

I'll even add to your argument that the present participe in Lk 4:2 means that there were more temptations from Satan. And I sill agree word for word on everything else--where is it that we differ (except where i think he was tempted in the Garden & u dont) besides that I feel like were saying the same thing?

The cup He asked to pass from Him was not the death on the cross.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

So how do you think he was tempted in the Garden?
Since His prayer was not dealing with the cross or His death on it?

I personally feel the very prayr for strength (or another option) implies temptation---yet he never Veered from the Father’s will.

 

[kyredneck]

He was impeccable. His was a divine nature, not of the earth as we. He could not have sinned.

That's why I am convinced that He was not asking to circumvent the cross in Mt 26:39, as some say that He was.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Rev--Besides the slight difference in if Jesus was tempted in the Garden---what exactly is it that we are disagreeing on-lol

 

[revmwc]

I personally feel the very prayr for strength (or another option) implies temptation---yet he never Veered from the Father’s will.

I believe that His body was under such severe stress that He felt He was going to die in the garden.
The text says He was grieving, had blood drops falling from His forehead and even had to have Angel come and strengthen Him. So God answered His prayer of Father don't let me die here tonight help me make it to the cross, give me strength here tonight. The mind is willing but the body is weak, even being God he still had a human body. How many of us could have endured the agony He was going through that night knowing as He did what was coming. So He prayed let this cup (death in the garden) pass from me. The Father answered that prayer. Therefore no temptation took place.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I believe that His body was under such severe stress that He felt He was going to die in the garden.
The text says He was grieving, had blood drops falling from His forehead and even had to have Angel come and strengthen Him. So God answered His prayer of Father don't let me die here tonight help me make it to the cross, give me strength here tonight. The mind is willing but the body is weak, even being God he still had a human body. How many of us could have endured the agony He was going through that night knowing as He did what was coming. So He prayed let this cup (death in the garden) pass from me. The Father answered that prayer. Therefore no temptation took place.

Well I can see what ur saying—but a ‘cup’ is often the symbol of divine wrath against sin in the OT (isa 51:17, 22; jer 25:15-17, 27-29;lam 4:21, 22, Ezek 23:31-34; Hab 2:16) so I personal believe it was a prayer for strength or another option, but I wouldn’t yell heresy if u disagreed with me---so besides that—do u believe Christ suffered real temptation ever in his earthly life?

 

[revmwc]

Well I can see what ur saying—but a ‘cup’ is often the symbol of divine wrath against sin in the OT (isa 51:17, 22; jer 25:15-17, 27-29;lam 4:21, 22, Ezek 23:31-34; Hab 2:16) so I personal believe it was a prayer for strength or another option, but I wouldn’t yell heresy if u disagreed with me---so besides that—do u believe Christ suffered real temptation ever in his earthly life?

Yes He did in all ways that we do yet without sin. Because He didn't have an Old Sin Nature, and He didn't have a wife that tried to feed Him the fruit from a tree God had forbidden Him to eat from.

 

[revmwc]

Well I can see what ur saying—but a ‘cup’ is often the symbol of divine wrath against sin in the OT (isa 51:17, 22; jer 25:15-17, 27-29;lam 4:21, 22, Ezek 23:31-34; Hab 2:16) so I personal believe it was a prayer for strength or another option, but I wouldn’t yell heresy if u disagreed with me---so besides that—do u believe Christ suffered real temptation ever in his earthly life?

A "cup" can also refer to death, death was the penalty for sin.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

A "cup" can also refer to death, death was the penalty for sin.

Very true---So basically (although the slight difference of opinion about temptation in the Garden) we both agree that he suffered real temptation in his earthly life—although they were unique to who he was (ie they might not be the exact temptations we face) they were real nonetheless & had to be resisted.

 

[kyredneck]

[edit]

He was not tempted in the Garden at all. If you look at the text in all the places we see this then you would see He had every intention of making it to the cross. He was not asking not to make it to the cross that night, His prayer was that He would make it.

I had to back up and edit the above in. I fully agree with you. He never had any intention of circumventing the cross. In Mt 26:39 He was asking the Father to save Him from death, and HE WAS HEARD.

who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

I believe the statement, 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt' (Mt 26:39), was Christ 'committing himself to him the judgeth righteously'. I believe that His request from the same verse, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me', was a supplication to 'him that was able to save him from death'. I believe the fact that God raised Him from the dead shows both that His supplication was heard, and that God declared Christ to be righteous though the Jews judged Him to be worthy of death.

 

[freeatlast]

I can see where you would say that his temptations were different than ours—simply b/c we don’t have the ability to turn stones to bread (at least I personally don’t), or it was not the Father’s plan for me to suffer His full wrath on the cross so I would not ever have to ask if there was another way, but I’m still trying to see how we could have a high priest who truly relates to us if the temptations were not real.

[SIZE=+0]Let me use one more explanation. In His temptation in the wilderness. The first temptation was about Him being hungry. I believe he was not just hungry, but starving. However I also believe He never had any desire to turn those stones into bread. Brought as a temptation by satan, yes, but no desire to do what satan said. Notice the Lord's answer when confronted with the temptation.
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

He felt hunger like us all and even more, but he was not wrestling with turning those stones into bread. He never entertained the thought.

The second temptation is about who Jesus was and the miss-applying of scripture by satan to hopefully play on some pride.

Again I don't believe the Lord had a prideful bone in His body or personal need to prove Himself. He saw all that was and made it clear that He had no desire to tempt God.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

The third temptation was an offer of power and rule with being worshiped. Again i don't believe that the Lord had even the slightest desire to have power or rule or be worshiped. He was content in what ever His father gave to Him.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So while he suffered because of the fast and while He was seen as nothing in the eyes of people, and while He was worthy of worship he was not getting it I do not believe he felt any need to acquire any of these things for Himself or in the manner satan offered them.

One final example. A person might have sexual desire. We all have. That is normal and not sin. Just normal biology. However they do not have to battle with the thoughts of rape to fill the desire as that comes from a sinful heart. It is true some do, but that is because we are sinners and while I do believe the Lord was tempted in all manner of sin as we, I do not believe His temptation lead Him to fulfill the natural desires with sinful desires or thoughts.

I am not saying He did not have the natural biological feelings, we all have. I am saying He never developed or held a single sinful desire, thought or craving that was sinful much less carry out such. It is not sinful to be hungry, but stealing is as well as desiring to do so. Feeling the natural sexual desires is not sin, but filling those desires with the eyes, or thoughts or actually carrying them to fulfillment is. I believe the Lord had every natural desire we have but far more intense then we could ever believe and yet He never had a thought to lust, or steal or murder or anything else. He got angry, but never felt uncontroled rage. He knows what we suffer without having carried the natural desires that are not sinful to the place where sin is spawned. Again He never lusted, never had a thought of murder although we know He got angry and anger does not have to be sin, He never had a thought to steal and so on. He was sinless and never felt the things (lustings, murder desires, evil communications) we do because we turn natural feelings and desire which is not sin into sin because of the lust or evil that is in us. All sin comes from the heart but His heart was pure so He never experienced that side of what the temptation could bring like we do because we give in to the temptation which He never did.
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[revmwc]

[SIZE=+0]Let me use one more explanation. In His temptation in the wilderness. The first temptation was about Him being hungry. I believe he was not just hungry, but starving. However I also believe He never had any desire to turn those stones into bread. Brought as a temptation by satan, yes, but no desire to do what satan said. Notice the Lord's answer when confronted with the temptation.
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

He felt hunger like us all and even more, but he was not wrestling with turning those stones into bread. He never entertained the thought.

The second temptation is about who Jesus was and the miss-applying of scripture by satan to hopefully play on some pride.

Again I don't believe the Lord had a prideful bone in His body or personal need to prove Himself. He saw all that was and made it clear that He had no desire to tempt God.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

The third temptation was an offer of power and rule with being worshiped. Again i don't believe that the Lord had even the slightest desire to have power or rule or be worshiped. He was content in what ever His father gave to Him.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So while he suffered because of the fast and while He was seen as nothing in the eyes of people, and while He was worthy of worship he was not getting it I do not believe he felt any need to acquire any of these things for Himself or in the manner satan offered them.

One final example. A person might have sexual desire. We all have. That is normal and not sin. Just normal biology. However they do not have to battle with the thoughts of rape to fill the desire as that comes from a sinful heart. It is true some do, but that is because we are sinners and while I do believe the Lord was tempted in all manner of sin as we, I do not believe His temptation lead Him to fulfill the natural desires with sinful desires or thoughts.

I am not saying He did not have the natural biological feelings, we all have. I am saying He never developed or held a single sinful desire, thought or craving that was sinful much less carry out such. It is not sinful to be hungry, but stealing is as well as desiring to do so. Feeling the natural sexual desires is not sin, but filling those desires with the eyes, or thoughts or actually carrying them to fulfillment is. I believe the Lord had every natural desire we have but far more intense then we could ever believe and yet He never had a thought to lust, or steal or murder or anything else. he got angry, but never felt uncontroled rage. He knows what we suffer without having carried the natural desires that are sinful to the place where sin is spawned. Again He never lusted, never had a thought of murder although we know He got angry and anger does not have to be sin, He never had a thought to steal and so on. He was sinless and never felt the things (lustings, murder desires, evil communications) we do because we turn natural feelings and desire which is not sin into sin. All sin comes from the heart and His heart was pure so He never experienced that side of what the temptation could bring like we do because we give in to the temptation which He never did.
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See we do agree He didn't have an Old Sin Nature and we do. That is exactly what you are describing.

 

[freeatlast]

See we do agree He didn't have an Old Sin Nature and we do. That is exactly what you are describing.

Yes we agree to the point of what we had not what we have if we are saved. I read this worng and had to change my answer.

 

[revmwc]

No we don't agree.

Sorry couldn't resist