Could the Lord jesus ACTUALLYhad been Able To Sin?

[revmwc]

No we don't agree.

I do see symantically a lot of the same points on this just said a different way. He was tempted and didn'r give into the temptation.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

[SIZE=+0]Let me use one more explanation. In His temptation in the wilderness. The first temptation was about Him being hungry. I believe he was not just hungry, but starving. However I also believe He never had any desire to turn those stones into bread. Brought as a temptation by satan, yes, but no desire to do what satan said. Notice the Lord's answer when confronted with the temptation.
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

He felt hunger like us all and even more, but he was not wrestling with turning those stones into bread. He never entertained the thought.

The second temptation is about who Jesus was and the miss-applying of scripture by satan to hopefully play on some pride.

Again I don't believe the Lord had a prideful bone in His body or personal need to prove Himself. He saw all that was and made it clear that He had no desire to tempt God.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

The third temptation was an offer of power and rule with being worshiped. Again i don't believe that the Lord had even the slightest desire to have power or rule or be worshiped. He was content in what ever His father gave to Him.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So while he suffered because of the fast and while He was seen as nothing in the eyes of people, and while He was worthy of worship he was not getting it I do not believe he felt any need to acquire any of these things for Himself or in the manner satan offered them.

One final example. A person might have sexual desire. We all have. That is normal and not sin. Just normal biology. However they do not have to battle with the thoughts of rape to fill the desire as that comes from a sinful heart. It is true some do, but that is because we are sinners and while I do believe the Lord was tempted in all manner of sin as we, I do not believe His temptation lead Him to fulfill the natural desires with sinful desires or thoughts.

I am not saying He did not have the natural biological feelings, we all have. I am saying He never developed or held a single sinful desire, thought or craving that was sinful much less carry out such. It is not sinful to be hungry, but stealing is as well as desiring to do so. Feeling the natural sexual desires is not sin, but filling those desires with the eyes, or thoughts or actually carrying them to fulfillment is. I believe the Lord had every natural desire we have but far more intense then we could ever believe and yet He never had a thought to lust, or steal or murder or anything else. He got angry, but never felt uncontroled rage. He knows what we suffer without having carried the natural desires that are not sinful to the place where sin is spawned. Again He never lusted, never had a thought of murder although we know He got angry and anger does not have to be sin, He never had a thought to steal and so on. He was sinless and never felt the things (lustings, murder desires, evil communications) we do because we turn natural feelings and desire which is not sin into sin because of the lust or evil that is in us. All sin comes from the heart but His heart was pure so He never experienced that side of what the temptation could bring like we do because we give in to the temptation which He never did.
[/SIZE]

I think I see what your saying---so you completely affirm that he was legitimately tempted (ie had to actually resist the devil in the wilderness), but that he never entertained the temptation to sin like we do (ie he had the thought, possibly b/c Satan put it there, but immediately did the Father’s will & put it out of his head whereas we might actually take the time to think about it—even if we don’t do it, b/c of our Sin nature). If this is what your saying, then we are actually saying the same thing, but in different ways. My understanding of Heb 2 & 4, is that while he might not have been tempted to fornicate, murder, steal---his temptations were nonetheless real, & he by his own will (which He had submitted wholly to the Father) had to actually resist—thus he can relate in being legitimately tempted. Would you agree?

 

[JesusFan]

I think I see what your saying---so you completely affirm that he was legitimately tempted (ie had to actually resist the devil in the wilderness), but that he never entertained the temptation to sin like we do (ie he had the thought, possibly b/c Satan put it there, but immediately did the Father’s will & put it out of his head whereas we might actually take the time to think about it—even if we don’t do it, b/c of our Sin nature). If this is what your saying, then we are actually saying the same thing, but in different ways. My understanding of Heb 2 & 4, is that while he might not have been tempted to fornicate, murder, steal---his temptations were nonetheless real, & he by his own will (which He had submitted wholly to the Father) had to actually resist—thus he can relate in being legitimately tempted. Would you agree?

Thing is that while a Human, he could experience being tempted, he also had a sinless nature...
he would NOT have anything residing within him to would respond to sin BUT

he did have to make a decision each time to 'do the right thing"...

believe that while on earth, Jesus Voluntary "limited" the usuage of his Divine attributes...
part of the kenosis, Jesus lived in His Humanity, totally reliant upon doing the Will of His father, in power of the Holy Spirit....

Always remained God in his nature, but agreed to be empowered by Holy Spirit as his "power source" totally dependant on his father...

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Thing is that while a Human, he could experience being tempted, he also had a sinless nature...
he would NOT have anything residing within him to would respond to sin BUT

he did not have to make a decision each time to 'do the right thing"...

believe that while on earth, Jesus Voluntary "limited" the usuage of his Divine attributes...
part of the kenosis, Jesus lived in His Humanity, totally reliant upon doing the Will of His father, in power of the Holy Spirit....

Always remained God in his nature, but agreed to be empowered by Holy Spirit as his "power source" totally dependant on his father...

That’s exactly what I’m saying---In the wilderness for example, Satan’s very suggestion made it a legitimate temptation, but by his own will (which was submitted to the Father & empowered by the Spirit) he resisted. He never actually entertained the thought (as we with a sin nature might do), but immediately put it away—thus resisting what was a very real temptation (even if he never had the intention to actually do it).

 

[menageriekeeper]

That’s exactly what I’m saying---In the wilderness for example, Satan’s very suggestion made it a legitimate temptation, but by his own will (which was submitted to the Father & empowered by the Spirit) had to resist. He never actually entertained the thought (as we with a sin nature might do), but immediately put it away—thus resisting what was a very real temptation (even if he never had the intention to actually do it).

Since you have been here for a while, you know I'm going to have to ask:

Why couldn't Eve have resisted the serpant's temptation in like manner? She didn't have a sin nature either.

 

[freeatlast]

I think I see what your saying---so you completely affirm that he was legitimately tempted (ie had to actually resist the devil in the wilderness), but that he never entertained the temptation to sin like we do (ie he had the thought, possibly b/c Satan put it there, but immediately did the Father’s will & put it out of his head whereas we might actually take the time to think about it—even if we don’t do it, b/c of our Sin nature). If this is what your saying, then we are actually saying the same thing, but in different ways. My understanding of Heb 2 & 4, is that while he might not have been tempted to fornicate, murder, steal---his temptations were nonetheless real, & he by his own will (which He had submitted wholly to the Father) had to actually resist—thus he can relate in being legitimately tempted. Would you agree?

Well some of what you have said the answer is yes I agree, some is no and some I don't know.
Yes I feel that the Lord was tempted even more then we can understand, but no I don't think He even thought of any offer or way to fill the temptation by a sinful manner for even a millisecond. That part I do not believe. I do not believe he ever entertained a single sinful thought. He had the natural desires of a man, but he never looked on a woman to lust. He never experienced that part as that part comes from a sinful heart. I think women with lustful looks were all around Him, which would be a temptation, a real temptation, but He never felt the lust for them. Much like a man and His daughter. She may be very tempting to the neighbor boy or man, but for dad he only see her beauty even if running half dressed through the house. They both see the same person, but because of the different hearts one experiences something altogether different.
So no I don't think He ever had to put anything out of His mind as it was never there to begin with.
You mentioned by His own will having to resist. Well I don't believe it is like us. We have the lust already in us and when the temptation comes we sin. So in the case of the Lord there was never any lust in Him. While he felt the needs of the natural biological desires he never lusted. To say he had to battle those lusts is to say he had to think about it and just not give in even is in His mind. I don't believe that is the case. I believe he never had the desire or though of lust.
I never have the desire to or battle to not smoke dope, but it is all around me. I have no battle for that. I do other sins and have to battle not to think about them or not to look or not to open my mouth or punch someone out, but I am not the Lord. He never had a battle with feeling desires for sin of any kind.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Since you have been here for a while, you know I'm going to have to ask:

Why couldn't Eve have resisted the serpant's temptation in like manner? She didn't have a sin nature either.

That’s a good question—but in short- I think it comes down to her focus not being on God-but on herself. Jesus never focused on himself but always on the Father’s will.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I gotta ask another:

Considering Eve, can there be a true temptation without the desire to follow through?

 

[revmwc]

Since you have been here for a while, you know I'm going to have to ask:

Why couldn't Eve have resisted the serpant's temptation in like manner? She didn't have a sin nature either.

I believe for several reasons:
1. she had second hand information about what God had commanded and the serpent twisted the words around.
2. Adam should have been with her as her guide and strength. It was his job to protect her and keep her from being deceived.
3. She didn't have the Holy spirit residing in her, although she was spiritually alive.
4. She was seeking after the beauty of the garden and this fruit whatever it may have been appealed to her eye, her desire gave into the beauty and wonder of it and the serpent added to that desire.

 

[menageriekeeper]

While I believe 2 and possibly 4 as contributing factors, I'm not so sure about #3.

God came down and walked the garden with them in the evenings. Do you suppose He just walked around without saying anything? I'm not so certain that Eve was acting on secondhand information unless the serpent visited her the very day she was created. Even then, one would expect God to have given her some instruction before He presented Eve to Adam.

 

[freeatlast]

I gotta ask another:

Considering Eve, can there be a true temptation without the desire to follow through?

Certainly! The minute that satan lied to her the temptation had been given. There was no desire on her part before his lie. She made the mistake of looking at the tree to see. She made a conscience move because of unbelief to see if his words were true. Her willful choice and lack of faith brought about her actions. There was no initial desire on her part. if there had been then she did not need satan tempting her.His temptation was the suggestion. Her fall was listening because of being decieved.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I gotta ask another:

Considering Eve, can there be a true temptation without the desire to follow through?

Yes---a temptation can be real even if a person does not have intent to follow through. The Greek word for temptation actually has 2 meanings (translated ether temptation or test). The term is Peirazo- & when translated temptation normally means an enticement to get a person to go/act contrary to God’s Will, with the motive of having the person to fail. Satan in the wilderness legitimately did this to Christ, even if Christ never intended to follow through with Satan’s suggestion, the act of temptation was real b/c Satan was trying to entice Christ to go against the Father’s will. As far as Eve is concerned, she obviously had the desire to follow through b/c she did.

 

[revmwc]

While I believe 2 and possibly 4 as contributing factors, I'm not so sure about #3.

God came down and walked the garden with them in the evenings. Do you suppose He just walked around without saying anything? I'm not so certain that Eve was acting on secondhand information unless the serpent visited her the very day she was created. Even then, one would expect God to have given her some instruction before He presented Eve to Adam.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

We are told here that she was deceived. Satan in the form of the serpent twisted the words she had been told. Adam knew better He knew exactly what God's command was and he willing ate of the fruit from that tree. Would it not be said that she disobeyed the very words of God and sinned instead of being deceived if in fact she had first hand information? While she had a conscince in her she didn't have the Holy spirit in her. Scripture is clear in Old Testament times the Holy spirit came upon whom He willed and did not indwell the believer.

 

[menageriekeeper]

She made a conscience move because of unbelief to see if his words were true. Her willful choice and lack of faith brought about her actions.

I'm having problems with this and I'm not sure how to state them.

You seem to be saying that Eve had a choice between believing what God said (eat and die) or believing what Satan said (eat and know good from evil) and you equate this choice to believe with whether or not she exhibited faith in what God had said. Am I correct so far?

But what does a perfect individual with no sin nature need with faith?