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Could you clear a few things please ?

Spear

New Member
Some concepts, sometimes used as " accusations " :) (am joking, but ... ;)) often come back here, and i have it hard to understand these, considering the "simple" political view i have of the US politics, resumed to Democrats, Republicans, and Ralf Nader :).

I often read about libertarians, liberals ... what do these exactly mean, and can one put them on the political scale, or are these concepts not limited to a political wing, as " conservative " ie, meaning you can be a conservative democrat.

Help ! ;)

Thanks !
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
To give a very simple reply.

There are two main issues: personal liberty & finance.

A liberal is very open minded about both - ie very few laws prohibiting what a person may want to do. Yet on the other hand, they like a lot of laws to protect you - even from yourself. In finance a liberal thinks it is the govt responsibility to help out people no matter what.

A conservative basically believes that that there should be few laws to protect you you from yourself. (ie they are strong on gun rights). They believe that laws should mainly be to protect you from yourself. In finance, they are strong believers in capitalism, that taxes should be kept low and only for the common use - ie govt welfare programs should be kept at a minimum.

A libertarian believes in personal liberty, but little govt ( esp govt financial assistance)

The best way to give an example is that a:

A liberal say "you should be allowed an abortion and the govt should pay for it

A conservative says " there should be no abortions"

A libertarian says " if you want an abortion, thats ok, but you pay for it yourself."

In the US many Southern Democrats tend to be more conservative then their Northern brethren. This is due in part to States Rights (of which the War Between the States was fought - slavery was a secondary reason - contrary to popular belief).
Also, larger cites tend to be more liberal, where those in rural areas tend to be more conservative.

As in any case, there are varying degrees of liberalism and conservatism, as well as the precept.

For example, some thing that George W. Bush was a right wing extremest, yet many on the right think that Bush was way too liberal.

Hope this helps

Salty
 

Spear

New Member
Thanks for your help !

So, in fact, what we call socialism (not speaking of USSR socialism) is liberal in USA ?

Here, " libéral " means someone who is for full capitalism, " the market will regulate itself " " no intervention from the state, or minimalist " " no minimal salary should exist " ...
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The term 'liberal' has to be one of the most confusing words ever! Its meaning varies both temporally and spatially. It varies temporally in that its original meaning stems from the French Revolution, with its connotations of liberty, greater freedom for the individual and an opposition to conservatism (the latter being in those days the idea of maintenance of the status quo, and greater democracy. In continental Europe, inspired by its revolutionary birth, liberalism became associated with nationalism and the right of self-determination. Thus the largely failed Revolutions of 1848-9 were both liberal and national in nature (especially in what became Italy and Germany). In Britain, in contrast, liberalism became characterised by an alliance of the odd bedfellows of free market laissez-faire capitalism and other hallmarks of what Americans would today call libertarianism on the one hand, and progressive reform (widening of the electoral franchise, factory and mines regulation and, later, social legislation such as Old Age Pensions (=US Social Security) in 1908) on the other hand stemming from its opposition to the conservative position of maintenance of the status quo. This libertarian-progressive tension still characterises British liberalism today by and large and is represented officially by our Liberal Democrat Party (doubtless a tautology bu US standards!), although its agenda was also largely adopted by Tony Blair's 'New' Labour Party and to an extent our Conservative Party. The mainland European model, shorn of its discredited nationalist associations (after the debacle of Naziism) is similar but with more of an emphasis on the progressive 'wing' (think European Social Democrat parties) and I think it is that version which has largely been exported to the US in the 20th century. Possibly because 'socialist' has historically been such a dirty word in US politics and therefore a distinctively socialist party has never really taken off there, various socialist elements have crept in under the umbrella of 'liberalism', which leads to a degree of conflation of the terms although compared to Europe, socialism remains pretty weak in the US.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
A conservative ...They believe that laws should mainly be to protect you from yourself.
Salty

OPPS should read ...to protect you from others


From Ken
Originally Posted by SALTCITYBAPTIST
A libertarian says " if you want an abortion, thats ok, but you pay for it yourself."
A lot of us libertarians say otherwise: www.l4l.org

Glad to hear that
Ken, what % of libertarians would you say are pro-life?

Salty
 

alatide

New Member
Are you sure about that. I thought he pulled a McCain and became pro life for the election.

I agree that McCain, like the preceeding Republican presidential candidates, wqas not really pro-life. He simply mouthed the words so the gullible Christian Right would vote for him. Therefore, a vote for McCain was a vote for murdering babies.
 

alatide

New Member
And you actually expect us to take you seriously?

You should address that to RevM. That's what he said, that mcCain had previously not been very vocal against abortion and changed before the election to get the support of the Christian Right.
 
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