Could you have died yesterday?

I could light up a cigarette right now if I wanted, or throw a brick into the tv, too.
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Yea, and if it didn't interfere with His plan He'd probably let you.

 

I am not saying that His will is contingent upon my actions. But he gives free will. You can choose if you are going to respond to this post.

 

Tater,

What if it is not God's will for you to commit suicide? Can your free will overpower God's will? Or, will God stop you from doing that?

Joseph Botwinick

 

He didnt stop my cousin from doing that. So was it God's will that my unsaved cousin commit suicide?

 

Tater,

I am sorry for your loss.

I honestly don't know the answer to that. I mean no disrespect, but do you believe that your cousins free will overpowered the will of God? If that is true, then is God truly sovereign? Please explain your perspective on this.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Well, when you put it like that... . Of course, I believe that God is soverign. I just believe that we are not agreeing on what the permissive will of God is.

 

So did God in His sovereignty have someone commit suicide...or was it an act of their free will?

 

Would you please explain the permissive will of God?

Joseph Botwinick

 

PastorSBC,

The above quote was my honest answer to your question the first time it was asked.

Joseph Botwinick

 

OK. God's perfect will is exactly that. What he plans for our lives. But we dont always follow that will. If we did, we would be robots. Example... a person chooses to commit adultery. That is surely not God's will, b/c it is contrary to his word and commandments. People do it every day and he doesnt stop them. Thats permissive will. Not saying that he doesnt bring glory to himself through those times.

What is your view of permissive will?

 

I think He only interjects when it goes against His will.
He will not allow things to happen if it interferes with His plan.

 

Tater,

It sounds to me as if the soveriegn God chooses to allow us to make a choice, even though he knows that our choice will go directly against his will, which means that God thwarted his own will. Does that sound like the permissive will you are describing?

Joseph Botwinick

 

I dont think that means he thwarted his own will. Bue if he wanted to do that, he surely could.

 

Many times in the OT we see that God let the people go and go until he had had enough.

 

Tater,

I thought I understood your idea of God's permissive will. But now, I think I am just confused. Perhaps, if I asked a few questions, you could clear this up for me:

1. If God is sovereign, and allows free will, even though he knows that we will choose to do things that are against his soveriegn will, does that not mean that God in his sovereignty thwarts his own will? Please explain this permissive will to me and how it interacts with God's sovereignty.

2. If I choose to kill myself, utilizing God's permissive free will choice, then could it not also be said that it was ultimately God's sovereign will for me to kill myself since he knew that was what I would do and gave me the free will to do it?

3. Somewhere in this equation, the soveriegn will of God is gonna have to be taken into account, correct?

Joseph Botwinick

 

1. The Sovereign God has a perfect will. Part of that perfect will is that we humans are free to make choices.

2. No. God's perfect will could not be that one commit suicide. That is against his character and commandments. God's permissive will allows one to choose to commit suicide.

3. Yes, it is taken into account. Along with the permissive will. I'll get ya edu-ma-cated J!!

You are making me think very late!! I will have to take a fresh look at all this tomorrow and see if I explained myself clearly.

 

Hello Joseph_Botwinick.

Since God is Sovereign He cannot be less than Sovereign. A choice made by a person is a sovereign choice. When a person makes a choice God is not Sovereign.
JOB 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
Which ever way a man dies he dies through the direct will of God.

Hello TaterTot.

At the moment a man decides a thing God is no longer Sovereign.

john.

 

If it wasn't in God's will to respond I wouldn't have been able to. You seem to imply that just because God gave you a will you can do whatever you please with it. This is wholly untrue. Your will is free to make decisions, but it is still under subjection of God. Contest this point and become your own personal god. </font>[/QUOTE]I want to know exactly what "God's will" is? This phrase keeps getting throw around. The only mention of God's will that I know of is God's will that none perish. Does God's "will" allow you to respond on BB, or does God grant you your "will" to respond? Does God's "will" cause a murder, or does God allow a man's "will" to murder? Did God's "will" cause Eve to eat from the tree, or did God allow Eve's "will" to choose eating from the tree? Could it POSSIBLE be that God's "will" is that man have free "will" in which to choose life over death like God's Word says? Hmmmm.....

 

And who decides this Calvin, you or God? It sounds to me like you LIMIT God's sovereignty, which according to your own statement above makes you, a man, deciding "a thing", and according to you, makes God no longer Sovereign!