Could you have died yesterday?

At the moment a man decides a thing God is no longer Sovereign.

john. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Good morning Now to address your logical fallacy...
John 1:12-13 says " 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[a] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

This passage clearly shows God allowing his children to have free will.

I am wondering if some of you are coming from a predetermined theological position that you are defending... Why can it not be a "both/and" situation instead of "either/or" (re:God's Sovereignty and permissive will)?

Here are some examples from the top of my head that illustrate my thinking:

Sovereignty:
(Where God overrode decisions)
-Jonah
-Moses
(He said "go", they said "no", they went anyway)

Permissive Will:
(God allowed choice and people suffered consequences)
-David and Bathsheeba
-Eden

Both/And:
-Judas
-Pharoah

And in Revelation, we see judgement, even for Christians. How could a just God judge for actions/decisions that were not ours in the first place? The Sovereignty of God is the major theological idea in Revelation (Lamb opening seals, the way the book ends...paradise restored)
His permissive will is part of his Sovereignty.

Now...thanks guys for letting a girl play.

 

Conversely, if people die from suicide, and many do, is God causing or allowing it to happen? If Suicide is not a stated will of God and one commits suicide did that happen because of God or inspite of God?

 

Johnp, If you decide soemthing, does that remove God's sovereinty for me? Then how does it remove God's sovereignty for you? There's that dread word HOW again! Yes, you are the one making the declaration, now tell us how what you've declared happens can actually happen.

 

Lets use Bible instead of hypotheticals.

 

Hello Wes.

If a person dies today he will certainly be able to say tomorrow that he died yesterday. Is that just your wish shining through that you cease to exist at death?

And from my point of view I wonder why He said what you just said in that above.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

Now how do I limit God's Sovereignty by saying He calls all the shots and pulls all the strings? You have me beat?
Of course if another calls the shots then they are Sovereign that's what your free will is saying. You are sovereign man.

Hello TaterTot.

We do not come into judgment.
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Hello Wes.

If I decide a thing then God is not Sovereign nor is He God. Eat, drink and be merry for yesterday we didn't die.

john.

 

John, you did decide...you said if man has free will God is not sovereign...that is you deciding this, for this is not the conclusion I come to. It makes no difference what we decide or believe about God's sovereignty, He is sovereign regardless of what limitations or restrictions man puts on Him.

 

2 Cor. 5:10 says For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

and

Rom. 14:12 …So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Thats a whole 'nother issue.

 

You did not answer the question Johnp!

Do you have the power in your decisions to remove God's sovereignty from me? If Yes, then you are God, If no then God remains sovereign in spite of your decisions.

 

If we were totally righteous, there would be no plan of Salvation for man!

 

I wouldnt say it is his WILL that someone commit suiced...but he certainly knwos what choice that person will make. Back to the permissive will thing.

 

Who's "We" Wes? Is that the Apostles? LOL

 

Hello webdog.

No it is God that is working both of us working out His purposes.

How do I limit God's Sovereignty by saying He calls all the shots and pulls all the strings?

Hello Wes.

I answered you. God is Sovereign and that carries the meaning of Sovereignty and for that you might like to read up on some of our human despots to understand the word Despot.
No move is made by anything created except God moves it to work out His purpose. We are as nothing.

Hello TaterTot.

If I don't get back to you later give me a shout. That's gonna take some thinking.

john.

 

If we had any righteousness in us at all outside of Christ, we could choose to save ourselves.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Gods will:

Decretive: What God sovereignly, absolutely, efficaciously, brings to pass. It is what He has determined will occur. (did the suicide OCCUR?)

Preceptive: What God has spoken as right and true. It can be and quite frequently is resisted. (Thou shalt not murder). Was the suicide murder? Yes.

The suicide occurred by the Decretive will of God. But it was against His preceptive will.

 

Hello TaterTot

No it can't be God is Sovereign and He will not share His glory with another!

john.

 

Thats not sharing his glory with another. It all points back to him.

 

By claiming He cannot be sovereign WHILE allowing man to have free will which He can and does!