Could you have died yesterday?

It seems to me that most, not all, do not have the bible as their standard. Some have "God is Sovereign" as their standard and try to make everything in the Bible fit that. Some have "Man has free will" as their standard and try to make everything fit that. Shouldn't the Bible be the standard? It clearly demonstrates that God is sovereign AND that man has free will. It iswhen we try to figure out HOW that works together, because it seems irreconcileably opposite, that we demonstrate our disbelief in the Bible by saying that only ONE of those two is true.

 

Ah.... pragmatism at it's best.

You misunderstand one side. One side says God is Sovereign AND man has a free will.

 

Hello webdog.

No webdog that's a contradiction. It the same as saying I limit God's ability because He cannot create a thing too big for Him to lift.

Hello TaterTot.

Not the sovereign bit of Sovereignty. The sovereign bit of Sovereingnty points to man. The one that calls the shots is the Boss. God decreed all things and brings them to pass.

Hello Artimaeus.

Free will is sovereign but God is Sovereign and now we have too many sovereigns because there was no King in Israel at that time and people believed as they wanted! God is Sovereign.

john.

 

Man has free will.
He will choose WHATEVER he DESIRES. His heart is free to choose anything he WANTS.

But what does the natural man desire?

 

I believe that we need to take the scriptures seriously. However, what we cannot do is hold two ideas which contradict each other in virtue of the very meaning of the concepts involved. This happens in the free will / sovereignty debate.

It is simply unintelligble / meaningless / nonsensical to hold both of the following beliefs:

1. Man has free will in the sense that he has some (perhaps very little, but some nonetheless) liberty to act autonomously - without being compelled to act a certain way by some external agency.

2. God is a fully sufficient causal agent in respect to every event in the world (including human decisions).

I hope I have chosen my worlds carefully enough. These statements cannot both be true anymore that it can be true that the sky is blue and the sky is also green (at the same time).

I believe that humans have free will - but a very weak form - we are not nearly as free as we think.

God is sovereign specifically in respect to fulfilling his purposes - He is not sovereign at the level of individual events.

Holding these 2 views is not inconsistent - God has so much more control over the world than we do. Therefore, He can accomplish His purposes despite our free will choices.

 

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Throwing dice is a pretty small event.

Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Speaking is a small event.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

A man's steps I would say is a pretty small event. If God guides your steps, which are done without you even cogently thinking about, how can you think He leaves you to decide anything MORE that walking? He guides EVERYTHING. Talking, and walking.

Hmmm With the mouth one confesses.....

Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

 

This debate always seems to take the same form - "verse wars". I could respond by listing a litany of verses that support the "free will" position. This gets us nowhere.

We need to not be embarassed to think carefully and be willing to discard positions that are obviously self-contradictory.

RC, I cannot go where you go - you appear to hold to both of the positions I have described. I see these 2 positions to be obviously inconsistent.

 

Hello Andre.

The sky is green and the sky is blue you can manage to I see.

john.

 

There is absolutely nothing contradictory about asserting that man has some free will and yet God is sovereign specifically in respect to fulfilling His will, His intentions (as opposed to sovereign in respect to each and every discrete event).

It's perhaps a bit of a "technical" issue, but it seems eminently plausible that if our free will is relatively weak, God can indeed "work around" our free will choices. After all, God holds most of the cards.

 

Hello Andre.

As I said it is what you said to begin with. The sky is blue the sky is green is held by some.

Most of the cards is it? But none of the aces I suppose. My God causes He does not 'work around'. Some Sovereign that needs to 'work around' and not bring to pass.

john.

 

Insofar as God's will entails the accomplishment of some "high" level goal, his will does not necessarily "pin down" all the ways in which that goal will be achieved. People, through free will choices, may resist the fulfilment of God's will. But because God's power to act autonomously in the world so greatly dwarfs our power, we are not ultimately able to defeat his purposes.

God can achieve the same goal more than one way - this is what it means to say that God is sovereign in respect to his general will but not in respect to all specific events. So whether I choose path A or B or C, God can manipulate other factors in order to absolutely ensure that his purposes will be achieved.

 

Hm. Well that settles that. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, this is fundamentalist soft-think. You cannot dismiss an argument simply by posting scripture especially when there are texts that support the opposing view.

When I was a child, I thought like a child. When I became a man.....

 

Hm. Well that settles that. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, this is fundamentalist soft-think. You cannot dismiss an argument simply by posting scripture especially when there are texts that support the opposing view.

When I was a child, I thought like a child. When I became a man.....

 

Hello Andre.

That is not Sovereignty that is coming along behind. Working around is not Sovereignty but your opinion.

john.

 

Time to grow up Andre. It's called Concurrence.
You say autonomy. Find out what the word means before you use it. The only one by definition that is autonomous is GOD. Man can NEVER claim that. Also you are arguing with improper definitions of Biblical free will. You can not FIND one verse that says natural man has the ABILITY BY HIMSELF to choose God. And please spare me the imperatives please. I know since you are not a child and think like a man you know what I mean by the imperative verses correct?

 

This level of debate is simply of no interest to me. I'm off to more challenging ground.....

[ July 20, 2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Andre ]

 

If we had any righteousness in us at all outside of Christ, we could choose to save ourselves.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]How could we do that? No, I know how we choose, its the saving ourselves that I what to know how its done.