"Country Preachers"

[thatbrian]

Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Sunday evening sermon, August 18, 1889:

"I learned my theology, from which I have never swerved, from an old woman who was a cook....She could talk about the deep things of God and as I sat and heard what she had to say, as an aged Christian, of what the Lord had done for her, I learned more from her instruction than from anybody I have ever met with since!"

Wonderful. You present that as if she was his sole source. We all know that's not the case.

 

[tyndale1946]

Acts 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

I have known and heard preachers all my life, and they could preach the cover off a Bible... They were Country Preachers and held a full time job... This is not to detract from those who go to religious colleges and seminaries, they have there place but Peter was a fisherman and Paul was a tentmakers... We know according to scripture the intelligence of Paul and his background... How he was on fire to wipe out this new sect called Christianity... Then the Lord turned him in a new direction... We also know of Peter, who after the crucifixion of Jesus said... I go fishing!... Back to the occupation he had when the Lord called him... Until Jesus was resurrected three days later, then he also went a new direction... I've heard preacher after preacher tell from their experience from the stand how the Lord called them to preach... How unworthy they felt in the undertaking even after they were ordained... But again that is the way of our and our church and our people... If we feel a brother has been called of God we put him in the stand to exercise that gift, to see if he has or not, following biblical guidelines to make sure it was a heavenly calling and not a local one according to scripture... Again this is the way the Old Line Primitive Baptist Church is... I can only speak for our brethren and not anyone else... I know of another Primitive Baptist on here an maybe he will add to what I said... That being said we all serve Christ, doctrines and practices just differ... Brother Glen

 

[Jerome]

Wonderful. [falsehood snipped] We all know that's not the case.

Not sure why you responded like that. It's supportive of what you said:

Education by itself is meaningless. Godly men seeking training from other godly men. That's what I'm referring to.

 

[JonC]

Guess it depends how you define preparation. I will use industrial maintenance tech as an example. When one comes in my plant, I can immediately tell you the ones who went to school from the ones who apprenticed and kind of picked it up on their own. The ones who went to school spend more time looking at service manuals and schematics than the self learned/apprentice trained spend making the repair.

Our industry (HVAC) is the opposite. The self-taught seem to struggle with the newer technology.

IMHO one benefit of seminary is that it gives one the time to study and requires one to study outside of his own tradition. But probably the main benefit (not only of seminary but college in general) is the development of critical thinking skills.

 

[thatbrian]

Not sure why you responded like that. It's supportive of what you said:

I'm not sure why I responded to you, period.

 

[thatbrian]

But probably the main benefit (not only of seminary but college in general) is the development of critical thinking skills.

Agreed, which is why men who have been trained as attorneys would make good theologians and teachers.

 

[JonShaff]

IMHO one benefit of seminary is that it gives one the time to study and requires one to study outside of his own tradition. But probably the main benefit (not only of seminary but college in general) is the development of critical thinking skills.

Agreed...seminary teaches you how to study, giving you a special set of skills to approach your calling with the proper set of tools and best approach to arrive at the desired Goal, namely Glorifying Christ in your life and Platform given (Preaching God's Word).

 

[Rob_BW]

I agree. In this country we have that option, but in many third world countries they don't, so mentoring can be helpful, but there are far too few godly and educated men to help with that either.

How about self study. Can a man be trained through the writings of others?

We're lucky enough today to have video lectures from the best schools available online, but two centuries ago a stack of books was likely as good as it got on the frontier.

 

[thatbrian]

How about self study. Can a man be trained through the writings of others?

We're lucky enough today to have video lectures from the best schools available online, but two centuries ago a stack of books was likely as good as it got on the frontier.

Reading books is very much like lectures. I think it would be a good substitute, but that again depends on which authors one reads.

 

[JonC]

How about self study. Can a man be trained through the writings of others?

We're lucky enough today to have video lectures from the best schools available online, but two centuries ago a stack of books was likely as good as it got on the frontier.

A.W. Tozer comes to mind.

 

[Reformed]

How about self study. Can a man be trained through the writings of others?

We're lucky enough today to have video lectures from the best schools available online, but two centuries ago a stack of books was likely as good as it got on the frontier.

Rob,

There are some very good non-traditional learning opportunities for those that aspire to ministry. Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is one such opportunity. It combines classroom and distance learning to prepare men for the ministry. I have taken a course from CBTS taught by Sam Waldron. It allows a student to leverage accountability to the local church with offsite (or distance) learning taught by esteemed faculty.

 

[utilyan]

No such thing as self taught.

Pedigree or its fake.

Lets start as non-religion atheist I'm looking at a particular religion, whats my attitude?

==
What is any man who has been in the real outer world, for instance, to make of the everlasting cry that Catholic traditions are condemned by the Bible? It indicates a jumble of topsy-turvy tests and tail-foremost arguments, of which I never could at any time see the sense. The ordinary sensible sceptic or pagan is standing in the street (in the supreme character of the man in the street) and he sees a procession go by of the priests of some strange cult, carrying their object of worship under a canopy, some of them wearing high head-dresses and carrying symbolical staffs, others carrying scrolls and sacred records, others carrying sacred images and lighted candles before them, others sacred relics in caskets or cases, and so on. I can understand the spectator saying, “This is all hocus-pocus”; I can even understand him, in moments of irritation, breaking up the procession, throwing down the images, tearing up the scrolls, dancing on the priests and anything else that might express that general view. I can understand his saying, “Your croziers are bosh, your candles are bosh, your statues and scrolls and relics and all the rest of it are bosh.” But in what conceivable frame of mind does he rush in to select one particular scroll of the scriptures of this one particular group (a scroll which had always belonged to them and been a part of their hocus-pocus, if it was hocus-pocus); why in the world should the man in the street say that one particular scroll was not bosh, but was the one and only truth by which all the other things were to be condemned? Why should it not be as superstitious to worship the scrolls as the statues, of that one particular procession? Why should it not be as reasonable to preserve the statues as the scrolls, by the tenets of that particular creed? To say to the priests, “Your statues and scrolls are condemned by our common sense,” is sensible. To say, “Your statues are condemned by your scrolls, and we are going to worship one part of your procession and wreck the rest,” is not sensible from any standpoint, least of all that of the man in the street.” --GK Chesterton.
==


None of you have a direct pedigree to Jesus Christ. You came from someone who disagreed from another religion maybe even 4 or 5 branches off.


Someone introduced to Jesus by a Religion they later reject as absurd and silly and went on to pick up THEIR scriptures with no authority or logic.


If you don't have a direct agreed on teaching lined up and handed down from Jesus Christ it is FAKE.

 

[agedman]

Our industry (HVAC) is the opposite. The self-taught seem to struggle with the newer technology.

IMHO one benefit of seminary is that it gives one the time to study and requires one to study outside of his own tradition. But probably the main benefit (not only of seminary but college in general) is the development of critical thinking skills.

Jon, I just have to post that I disagree.

First, the industries are suffering from the inexperienced employees, and especially the service industries, because more often the technical services teach from the bench and not from the field. Hands on training is always preferred when looking over applications.

Second, Imo, FEW undergraduate and graduate courses actually teach critical thinking skills. Most of them have the instructor presenting and the students have to document learning by restating the course work.

Here is the difficulty. The typical high school and lower system may engage some critical thinking, but the maturity level of the students and life experiences tend to limit the development much beyond beginner level. The undergraduate college/university level and even at the graduate level have typical 14 block class sessions. Far to short to develop much in the manner of thinking other then offer reading lists. The graduate level assumes the critical thinking has already been developed, and it is not necessary to spend time in that effort.

So, where is critical thinking learned?

The same place as that pastor who has had no "formal training." From the work environment in which the difficulties are real, and the demands are enormous.

At the industry level, it is the difference between a school trained tech and that tech seasoned first in the ranks of the apprentice. One will know theory, and have some bench knowledge, the other will have ears open listening to the mechanics, hearing the load and unloading mechanisms, putting hands on the equipment to sense levels of running temperatures, looking at the gauges for fluctuations...

Which one will diagnose and resolve the issues more quickly for the customer?

That field trained pastor may not have all the book knowledge of fine arts, of psychological methods, of accounting practices...

But, that family in crisis, will want someone who knows the ropes, and how to succeed because they have done the work, been in the trenches, and know how to handle the ship.

 

[Reynolds]

Our industry (HVAC) is the opposite. The self-taught seem to struggle with the newer technology.

I guess some of it depends on the person. My next door neighbor dropped out of high school, got a GED, and has gotten rich in the commercial/residential HVAC business. He was the first dealer in this area installing and servicing multi stage units and inverter drive units.

 

[agedman]

Agreed...seminary teaches you how to study, giving you a special set of skills to approach your calling with the proper set of tools and best approach to arrive at the desired Goal, namely Glorifying Christ in your life and Platform given (Preaching God's Word).

If one hasn't learned "how to study, giving (one) a special set of skills to approach (the) calling, ..." seminary isn't the place to learn such.

Glorifying Christ in a persons life and "preaching God's Word" is not learned in the classroom.

If such were, then the seminary experience would not have cranked out decades of failure.

One should ALREADY be glorifying Christ in their live, should already have been "preaching" through their home church's outreach programs (nursing homes, Sunday school, youth meetings...).

I remember reading the testimony of Ed Nelson (pastor of South Sheridan Baptist Church - now long retired) and how God lead him from the moment of conversion though selection of schooling and on to the pastorate.
Dr. Ed Nelson On The Ministry In His Own Words

He was already sold out to Christ, already striving to serve the Lord, and the schooling was a manner of further service, not preparation to serve.

Not a single student to seminary should be accepted without a clear documented history of having that relationship with Christ and already busy doing the calling of God.

 

[JonC]

I guess some of it depends on the person. My next door neighbor dropped out of high school, got a GED, and has gotten rich in the commercial/residential HVAC business. He was the first dealer in this area installing and servicing multi stage units and inverter drive units.

It's a mix. I'm old school (I am a trained tech but have been out of the field for a bit). I am amazed at what our newer techs lack when it comes to what I do consider common sense troubleshooting. But at the same time our older experienced techs struggle grasping inverter technology. Our "shining stars" in this area are our younger guys.

Another issue we have noticed are experienced techs who rely on rule of thumb experience when installing 410a variable speed units (especially higher SEER equipment). Units are being oversized. I've seen large companies not even using vacuum gauges (at a time when proper evacuation is critical).

 

[agedman]

How about self study. Can a man be trained through the writings of others?

We're lucky enough today to have video lectures from the best schools available online, but two centuries ago a stack of books was likely as good as it got on the frontier.

Spurgeon, from his earliest days on earth, was a voracious reader, and devoured the family library which included both clasics and theology.

Other then that, he had no formal training.

 

[JonC]

Jon, I just have to post that I disagree.

First, the industries are suffering from the inexperienced employees, and especially the service industries, because more often the technical services teach from the bench and not from the field. Hands on training is always preferred when looking over applications.

Second, Imo, FEW undergraduate and graduate courses actually teach critical thinking skills. Most of them have the instructor presenting and the students have to document learning by restating the course work.

Here is the difficulty. The typical high school and lower system may engage some critical thinking, but the maturity level of the students and life experiences tend to limit the development much beyond beginner level. The undergraduate college/university level and even at the graduate level have typical 14 block class sessions. Far to short to develop much in the manner of thinking other then offer reading lists. The graduate level assumes the critical thinking has already been developed, and it is not necessary to spend time in that effort.

So, where is critical thinking learned?

The same place as that pastor who has had no "formal training." From the work environment in which the difficulties are real, and the demands are enormous.

At the industry level, it is the difference between a school trained tech and that tech seasoned first in the ranks of the apprentice. One will know theory, and have some bench knowledge, the other will have ears open listening to the mechanics, hearing the load and unloading mechanisms, putting hands on the equipment to sense levels of running temperatures, looking at the gauges for fluctuations...

Which one will diagnose and resolve the issues more quickly for the customer?

That field trained pastor may not have all the book knowledge of fine arts, of psychological methods, of accounting practices...

But, that family in crisis, will want someone who knows the ropes, and how to succeed because they have done the work, been in the trenches, and know how to handle the ship.

I've found the older and well seasoned tech will diagnose issues with gas units and heat banks better. The school trained, experienced but younger techs will do better with mini-split units and communicating equipment.

I refuse to work on the new stuff.

 

[Reynolds]

It's a mix. I'm old school (I am a trained tech but have been out of the field for a bit). I am amazed at what our newer techs lack when it comes to what I do consider common sense troubleshooting. But at the same time our older experienced techs struggle grasping inverter technology. Our "shining stars" in this area are our younger guys.

Another issue we have noticed are experienced techs who rely on rule of thumb experience when installing 410a variable speed units (especially higher SEER equipment). Units are being oversized. I've seen large companies not even using vacuum gauges (at a time when proper evacuation is critical).

I can see that. A lot of older people are for some reason scared of inverters. I don't know a thing about Hvac, but I upgraded all my equipment and cranes to Magnatec, Teco, and Delta VFD inverters. I am not a licensed electrician, but I figured them out. I figured out how to make the Magnatek do things the dealer could not get it to do. Ok, now I will get back on subject.

 

[JonC]

I can see that. A lot of older people are for some reason scared of inverters. I don't know a thing about Hvac, but I upgraded all my equipment and cranes to Magnate, Teco, and Delta VFD inverters. I am not a licensed electrician, but O figured them out. I figured out how to make the Magnatek do things the dealer could not get it to do. Ok, now I will get back on subject.

How this applies to the topic is both have advantages. The experienced pastor brings things only years of experience taking care of his church and experience in the pulpit can bring. The educated pastor often has a broader view and understanding, hopefully based less on tradition, than he would otherwise possess. Each has its advantage.

And there is no place for DC in my AC.