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Court forced chemo

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
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Gina is correct. Parents have a right to be stupid with their kids. Governments would make themselves extinct trying to stop it.

This is a parental decision, and the precedent is scary.
 

just-want-peace

Well-Known Member
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Pfffftt, you have no idea how you would respond to the shock of being diagnosed with cancer until you walk in those shoes. God forbid.

Your statement makes me smirk, because I've literally heard dozens of survivors say they thought the same thing until the "shock" of being diagnosed.

It is true that chemo and radiation can be awful and those treatments might even be what kills a person eventually, but every case is different (that is the nature of cancer) and if want to try to live you will go with the best odds - when/if you ever where presented with them.

My main job is to rebuild my "hair regrowing patient"'s bodies that have made it through the treatments (surgery, chemo, radiation) for cancer. and are on the road to recovery. Granted, sometimes my job is to just to give them some relief because the cancer has gone too far, but if you could see the smiles on the faces of those who are now cancer free and realizing they are gaining back their normal life after treatments I strongly believe you'd reconsider your judgment based on a few cases.

The bolded portion calls to mind my daughter who, at about 17-18, declared she would never marry a guy unless he had the following qualifications:
He had to:
1 like country music
2 like to dance
3 be a Baptist
4 have an unusual last name
Well, just to prove that God has a sense of humor, the following defined the lucky guy:
1 hated country music
2 hated dancing
3 was a Methodist (actually became an ordained pastor, but upon getting past the local congregation and seeing the heirachy, he became ordained as a baptist) and most amusing of all,
4 his last name was Smith!! :smilewinkgrin:
She says that she has now learned to NEVER say NEVER.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm sorry but if I'm diagnosed with cancer, I'm going to fight like hell to live.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
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When I was younger, the doctors thought I might have had cancer. Turned out it was just calcium build up causing a lump in my chest. So, smirk all you want. I've made up my mind. It's the same now as it was when I had the possibility of having it.

Yeah, whatever, Mountain Dew …err… Sapper Woody,
jester.gif
...but being faced with the possibility is far different from facing the facts along with being presented your options by professionals. But, hey, if you’ve made up your mind then I won’t bother to confuse you with the facts.
Zbigcheesygrin.gif
 

go2church

Active Member
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It would have been interesting to see what the alternative treatments that the mom had in mind were. The forcing of treatment is concerning. Makes me think that the alternative treatment wasn't really much of a treatment.

I'm curious if the mom was allowed to do nothing and the child died if there wouldn't be an outcry "why didn't somebody step in and do something" would have popped up.

All life is precious and should be protected. The irony of the same government legalizing abortion and now forcing a potentially life saving treatment should not be lost in the discussion.
 

Sapper Woody

Well-Known Member
Yeah, whatever, Mountain Dew …err… Sapper Woody,
I don't get the reference, sorry. I am going to assume it was something funny.

...but being faced with the possibility is far different from facing the facts along with being presented your options by professionals
The same professionals that prescribe a medication that causes depression and suicide to combat depression?
But, hey, if you’ve made up your mind then I won’t bother to confuse you with the facts. []
No confusion here.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I don't get the reference, sorry. I am going to assume it was something funny.

Last time I talked to you, some time ago, you said something about living off of Mountain Dew or maybe Dr. Pepper or something instead of water I think it was and I was ribbing you about that. Guess I didn't remember the details good enough to take the swipe. ;)

The same professionals that prescribe a medication that causes depression and suicide to combat depression?

I criticize the ethics of Medical doctors prescribing drugs for everything as much as anyone, the side effects, the easy fix that society wants, the lack of attention to necessary healthy lifestyle changes but instead take a pill, etc. is my soap box, but with cancer the options are limited. Simple math would prove the odds of survival are much better with the best our medical doctors have to offer rather than with these wacko alternatives out there, like cannabis oil etc. BUT, your argument fails to show the alternatives are better or even in the same league which you would need to prove and your reasoning, well, is a worthless rhetorical question leading to fallacy.

No confusion here.

You're basing your judgment of the benefits of chemo off what, 4 cases? Where I doubt you know what stage these people were diagnosed with or anything else about the varying types of cancer they had or the chance of survival to begin with. ...And that doctors prescribe medication that has adverse affects for combat depression as your logic that chemo should be avoided when treating cancer?

Again, it is important to understand that the nature of every cancer case is different but we have certain weapons to combat it. You tossing out chemo without consideration of all the circumstances and its documented effectiveness is ill-informed and like saying you'll go to gun fight with a knife.

That seems pretty confused to me.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have already made up my mind that if I am diagnosed with cancer, I will not be undergoing chemo. While I don't claim to have a vast knowledge of cancer or alternatives to chemo, my limited personal experience leads me to believe that some alternatives work better than chemo.



And before people start telling me how they know so much more than me, I've known 4 people to get diagnosed with terminal cancer. (A few others non-terminal, like skin cancer). Of those 4, 3 did chemo and died horribly anyway. 1 did alternatives (diet, exercise, etc) and lives. That's enough evidence for me.

I agree and I find that its the chemo that's the real killer.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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I'm sorry but if I'm diagnosed with cancer, I'm going to fight like hell to live.

That was my uncles resolve too and mine and my three cousins resolve as well. Needless to say, we buried him this Monday ....from 225 lbs (full head of hair and full beard) to 70 lbs, bald with no beard.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That was my uncles resolve too and mine and my three cousins resolve as well. Needless to say, we buried him this Monday ....from 225 lbs (full head of hair and full beard) to 70 lbs, bald with no beard.

He fought like hell and lost. That doesn't mean everyone does.

Here is a friend of ours who fought like hell and won - as did her sister. I've known this family since the oldest, Melissa was about 7. Her dad was my husband's business partner and my boss.

http://www.glamour.com/inspired/blogs/the-conversation/2012/05/meet-erin-zammett-ruddy-shes-m
 

Gina B

Active Member
But this isn't about whether chemo being better than other treatments. It's about government mandated health care and not only government mandated, but actually court ordering a very specific treatment, and against the will of the ill person and a parent.
It's not even a slippery slope issue. They done leaped over a steep cliff and screamed "All Hail the Power of the System" all the way down, then got up, saluted, and did it again.
 

go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
I fear your argument could be used to support abortion and euthanasia. Isn't the same argument "It's not the governments business what I do with my body" that justifies these?
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
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But this isn't about whether chemo being better than other treatments. It's about government mandated health care and not only government mandated, but actually court ordering a very specific treatment, and against the will of the ill person and a parent.

Okay Gina, I'll try to take this thread back to where you want to go.

To you that's (government control of our children) the main issue, the top priority, or maybe what you value most, but to me, in this instance, it's about saving this girl's life who has made a very stupid decision.

To me there is a time to stand up for individual freedoms but this isn't the time to pull out that card and take a stance with the mother's agenda - whose priorities in this matter IMO lack a common sense of loving parental guardianship having took the position of the right of freedom OVER her own daughter's welfare.

This girl's life is at stake! and I value that more than taking my typical stance against those who would take away our freedom of liberty. In this instance I say let the enemy (big brother government) save this girl's life.

I'm looking at this as an INDIVIDUAL CASE which will save this child's life NOT as a threat which will open the door to a government takeover of our parenting rights. One could make such an argument but IMO they'd be cowering to that the "sky is falling" on our rights rhetorical argument which just isn't true in this case. Do you really think that's what's this is about? Or do you think this is opportunity to make that the issue while you, like the parent, neglect to put this child's life as the priority?

Some look at this as an opportunity to wave their political flag of the right of freedom. I look at this as a opportunity to save the life of a child whose parent has shown that she is willing to place her of letting her little darling do whatever she wishes whenever she wants OVER the VALUE of doing what is best for child which is giving her a VERY GOOD chance at living her life OVER certain DEATH.

That may be good parental love to you but to me it it is a parent putting the welfare and love of her child secondary to her love of the freedom of rights. It is a time to put your foot down on a parent who does not have her child best interests at heart and is attempting to stand behind a cloud of political posturing to achieve victory over an irresponsible decision to let her little princess put her childish, "I'm invulnerable and want to do what feels good NOW" over the common sense responsible decision that will most likely save her life - and that my friend is being treated with CHEMO. To say chemo isn't the issue is to throw out a major premise to this argument and to try to create a half-truth.


Or as a friend of mine recently said which summed it up pretty well in one sentence, "Does she want to die or is she looking for attention?"
 
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Gina B

Active Member
I fear your argument could be used to support abortion and euthanasia. Isn't the same argument "It's not the governments business what I do with my body" that justifies these?

It can work just as well the other way. Now that the nation is allowing the government to force procedures like chemo, it's reasonable that they can mandate abortions or euthanasia. Maybe it's already happening. Who knows what happens to children or the elderly when the state becomes their only voice.

Right now abortion is legal anyhow. So is euthanasia in some areas. So is chemo. So is holistic cancer treatment. So are fillings in teeth. Are you really willing to let the government force you or anyone else to go through any of those?
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Now that the nation is allowing the government to force procedures like chemo, it's reasonable that they can mandate abortions or euthanasia. Maybe it's already happening.

IOW's "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
zscared.gif
" "To hell with this child's life!"


No Gina, it is not reasonable to assume that because of this individual case that the government will start mandating abortion and euthanasia. That is called a fallacious scare tactic and unfortunately it is one given to support a political agenda RATHER than take into consideration what should be the precedence that in this individual case a child's life is at stake. But, I suppose you have your priorities...

Go ahead and use this opportunity to jump on the side of a mother who also values the attention of making this an argument for freedom of rights over her own daughter's life. But, for me, as much as I will stand up and fight for "reasonable" freedom of one's rights I DO NOT consider this a reasonable or ethical opportunity to twist the issue into a battle about government takeover of our rights, no less, by means of means of fallacious scare tactic rhetoric. RATHER I consider this the opportunity to stop the unconscionable action of parent who is putting her child's life secondary to these issues and to take this opportunity to stand by an ethical decision of a judge to save a child's life.

Originally posted be Benjamin:
I'm looking at this as an INDIVIDUAL CASE which will save this child's life NOT as a threat which will open the door to a government takeover of our parenting rights. One could make such an argument but IMO they'd be cowering to that the "sky is falling" on our rights rhetorical argument which just isn't true in this case. Do you really think that's what's this is about? Or do you think this is opportunity to make that the issue while you, like the parent, neglect to put this child's life as the priority?

I guess you've answered my question.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I fear your argument could be used to support abortion and euthanasia. Isn't the same argument "It's not the governments business what I do with my body" that justifies these?

It's the argument that already supports these sins - and thus what is just so puzzling.

It's a 17 year old girl's own body if she wishes to kill her baby.

It's NOT a 17 year old girl's own body if she does not wish to have chemo.

There is a huge disconnect here.
 

Gina B

Active Member
Ben - I did not bring abortion and euthanasia into this. Go2church did. I simply countered his argument. As far as your "That would never happen" style response, it already has. In a case where someone actually cared, the court ordered abortion ruling was overturned in a higher court.

You do not agree with the child and her mother on how they want to deal with her illness. You agree with the government choosing chemo as the only choice, taking custody of this person, and forcing the chemo on her. Why? Are you afraid other treatments won't work? Does the idea that someone might take a higher risk, or even choose to not fight cancer, go against your sense of morality? Please explain how this is okay.

And this is not happening to just one family. Medical kidnappings are happening all across the nation. There are websites devoted to exposing the practice of taking kids from parents who disagree with doctors or seek second opinions or because a social worker thinks a child needs different treatment.
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But this isn't about whether chemo being better than other treatments. It's about government mandated health care and not only government mandated, but actually court ordering a very specific treatment, and against the will of the ill person and a parent.
It's not even a slippery slope issue. They done leaped over a steep cliff and screamed "All Hail the Power of the System" all the way down, then got up, saluted, and did it again.

Do I understand you to say that state ran medical care is to invasive and controlling? If this is true, do you oppose Obamacare, too?
 
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