Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality

[Revmitchell]

A federal judge has ruled in favor of a public university that removed a Christian student from its graduate program in school counseling over her belief that homosexuality is morally wrong. Monday's ruling, according to Julea Ward's attorneys, could result in Christian students across the country being expelled from public university for similar views.

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[Bob Alkire]

A federal judge has ruled in favor of a public university that removed a Christian student from its graduate program in school counseling over her belief that homosexuality is morally wrong. Monday's ruling, according to Julea Ward's attorneys, could result in Christian students across the country being expelled from public university for similar views.

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John Dewey would be real happy. He didn't care for our beliefs.

Many will cave in to get the degree and then teach it and in 20 or 30 years churches will say how wrong the church was to take a stand on what the Scriptures has to say.

 

[Robert Snow]

This site won't open for me, but:

I don't see why this student has to agree with a school when she is paying for an education in order to graduate, if she passes the courses.

I graduated from a secular university, and in doing so I took two philosophy courses from the same teacher who definitely did not agree with Christianity. We even discussed this some in class, but the teacher was fair and gave me the grades I earned.

 

[Revmitchell]

I fixed the link

 

[billwald]

Say the student thought that homosexual activity should be a capital offense . . . .

 

[Revmitchell]

Let's not..................

 

[targus]

Say the student thought that homosexual activity should be a capital offense . . . .

Ok - let's say that the student believed that homosexual activity should be a captial offense.

How does that disqualify that student from the program?

I thought that universities were supposed to encourage a diversity of thoughts - not censure them.

 

[billwald]

>Ok - let's say that the student believed that homosexual activity should be a captial offense.

>How does that disqualify that student from the program?

A school counselor to wants to kill some of the students? Makes as much sense as a pastor who wants some people to end up in Hell . . . oh, I see the logical connection with this list.

 

[targus]

>Ok - let's say that the student believed that homosexual activity should be a captial offense.

>How does that disqualify that student from the program?

A school counselor to wants to kill some of the students? Makes as much sense as a pastor who wants some people to end up in Hell . . . oh, I see the logical connection with this list.

How do you get from "believing that homosexual activity should be a capital offense" to "wants to kill some of the students"?

I don't know how you can possibly see any logical connection between any things - when your logic skills are so obviously flawed.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Ok - let's say that the student believed that homosexual activity should be a captial offense.

How does that disqualify that student from the program?

I thought that universities were supposed to encourage a diversity of thoughts - not censure them.

What standards should university adopt for counselors to follow? Should there be any standard?

 

[targus]

What standards should university adopt for counselors to follow? Should there be any standard?

This is not about a university hiring a counselor - it is about a student in a university graduate program.

Do you believe that universities be allowed to exclude students based on their private beliefs?

 

[StefanM]

This is not about a university hiring a counselor - it is about a student in a university graduate program.

Do you believe that universities be allowed to exclude students based on their private beliefs?

It's not a private belief, though. The student refused to counsel a gay client on the basis of past discussion of the client's homosexual relationship.

If you want to be a licensed counselor, you have to be willing to counsel according to the demands of the profession. If she is not comfortable performing the duties of the profession, she should seek anothe profession.

In counseling, the institution serves as a gatekeeper for entrants to the profession. If someone is unsuitable, then the university has the responsibility to remove the student from a licensure-based program.

Is it inconvenient for the student? Sure. Also, I think the school handled it badly, but there is an underlying principle at work here.

A Christian cannot expect the world to adapt to his or her beliefs. Someone opposed to selling alcohol should not be a bartender. A person unwilling to counsel should not be a counselor.

 

[targus]

It's not a private belief, though. The student refused to counsel a gay client on the basis of past discussion of the client's homosexual relationship.

If you want to be a licensed counselor, you have to be willing to counsel according to the demands of the profession. If she is not comfortable performing the duties of the profession, she should seek anothe profession.

In counseling, the institution serves as a gatekeeper for entrants to the profession. If someone is unsuitable, then the university has the responsibility to remove the student from a licensure-based program.

Is it inconvenient for the student? Sure. Also, I think the school handled it badly, but there is an underlying principle at work here.

A Christian cannot expect the world to adapt to his or her beliefs. Someone opposed to selling alcohol should not be a bartender. A person unwilling to counsel should not be a counselor.

It would be a simple matter for a counselor to simply refer a patient to another counselor if for whatever reason the counselor or client feels that the existing counselor/patient relationship is not working.

There is no law that says that a counselor must take on every client that walks through the door.

Counselors, psychologists, and physchiatrists can and do specialize in particular types of cases and also do not work on particular types of cases.

The same is true with lawyers. Some lawyers do not do divorces.

Would you argue the same if this were a medical student expelled for his belief that abortion is murder?

 

[StefanM]

It would be a simple matter for a counselor to simply refer a patient to another counselor if for whatever reason the counselor or client feels that the existing counselor/patient relationship is not working.

There is no law that says that a counselor must take on every client that walks through the door.

Counselors, psychologists, and physchiatrists can and do specialize in particular types of cases and also do not work on particular types of cases.

The same is true with lawyers. Some lawyers do not do divorces.

Would you argue the same if this were a medical student expelled for his belief that abortion is murder?

As the school mentioned, for the kind of counseling program in question, the students are being prepared to work in agencies that do not necessarily have the capacity for referrals.

Referral for specialization is different from systematic exclusion of clients.

And, no, I would not argue the same for a medical student in that scenario. No ethical code or demand of the profession requires that a doctor perform abortions.

 

[targus]

As the school mentioned, for the kind of counseling program in question, the students are being prepared to work in agencies that do not necessarily have the capacity for referrals.

The university has no say in where a student will eventually work after graduation - or even if a student will choose to work in the field or not.

Such choices are for the individual student to make.

It is the job of the university to teach a particular subject matter - not dictate opinion and belief onto the students.

Referral for specialization is different from systematic exclusion of clients.

Not if the systematic exclusion is for particular disorders.

To not treat clients presenting a particular condition - and referring them elsewhere instead is a perfectly acceptable practice in all professions that come to mind.

And, no, I would not argue the same for a medical student in that scenario. No ethical code or demand of the profession requires that a doctor perform abortions.

And no ethical code or demand of the profession requires that counselors, psychiatrists or psychologists treat every and all patients that present themselves.

An initial client interview to determine whether or not to accept a particular client is the norm in most professions.

When I was practicing as a CPA I accepted about one client in three.

I had various reasons for not accepting clients - but my reasons did not matter - I was free to accept or decline new clients as I saw fit.

Counselors have no ethical or professional obligation to accept every client either.

 

[Revmitchell]

It's not a private belief, though. The student refused to counsel a gay client on the basis of past discussion of the client's homosexual relationship.

If you want to be a licensed counselor, you have to be willing to counsel according to the demands of the profession. If she is not comfortable performing the duties of the profession, she should seek anothe profession.

In counseling, the institution serves as a gatekeeper for entrants to the profession. If someone is unsuitable, then the university has the responsibility to remove the student from a licensure-based program.

Is it inconvenient for the student? Sure. Also, I think the school handled it badly, but there is an underlying principle at work here.

A Christian cannot expect the world to adapt to his or her beliefs. Someone opposed to selling alcohol should not be a bartender. A person unwilling to counsel should not be a counselor.

This is equal to saying a doctor should not be allowed to be a doctor unless he is willing to perform abortions. Your logic is flawed

 

[billwald]

>How do you get from "believing that homosexual activity should be a capital offense" to "wants to kill some of the students"?

"Capital offense" means "punished by homicide offense." Killing homosexuals is OK as long as someone else does the killing for you?

 

[tinytim]

The very fact that there are some here that supports the school shows how far off base our Christian heritage has gone.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Of course I'll be persecuted for that statement.

 

[Revmitchell]

The very fact that there are some here that supports the school shows how far off base our Christian heritage has gone.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Of course I'll be persecuted for that statement.

I will stand beside you.

 

[Robert Snow]

The very fact that there are some here that supports the school shows how far off base our Christian heritage has gone.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Of course I'll be persecuted for that statement.

Yes, the Word of God leaves no doubt as to homosexuality being a sin.