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Featured Covenant of Redemption

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, May 1, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is not true at all.

    Most Baptist theologians have read Barth's Systematic Theology (something T. Cassidy said was essential for a Christian education...even though he disagreed with Barth).

    Have you read it? If not, was it to long to hold your attention?

    Same with Wright's Justification. That sucker is huge (and, IMHO, much larger than needed). But to debate against something one has to know that which he opposes. Have you read it, or was it too long?

    John Gill did not write complicated or lengthy books. That is one appeal for many. He is easy to understand. He also appeals to some because the language is antiquated so he sounds difficult, he echos Reformed theology, and best of all you can read Gill for free.
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I will defer to RC Sproul as he does a good job of explaining the covenant of redemption.

    What Is the Covenant of Redemption?
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    R.C. Sproul would be my pick to explain Covenant Theology as well. We lost a good preacher when he passed.

    Paul Enns does a good job too.
     
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Since @Iconoclast seems to have been prevented from posting at the present time, perhaps I may try to answer your question.
    You are quite correct that the Covenant of Redemption (variously called the Covenant of Grace or the Everlasting Covenant) was made before creation among the Persons of the Trinity.. Foreseeing the Fall of Man they decided to save out of the wreckage a vast number of sinners. The Father chose them and gave them to the Son to redeem; the Son redeemed them by taking flesh, living the life of complete obedience to the Father's will that Adam had failed to live and by satisfying Divine justice by paying the penalty in full for the sins of the elect. The Spirit works in the hearts of the redeemed bringing them to Christ and sealing them until the Last Day.

    The 'covenants of promise' (Ephesians 2:12) are those with Noah, Abraham and David. Here is A.W. Pink on the subject:
    ‘God made covenants with Noah, Abraham, David; but were they, as fallen creatures able to enter into covenant with their august and holy Maker? Were they able to stand for themselves, or to be sureties for others? The very question answers itself. What, for instance, could Noah possibly do which would ensure that the earth should never be destroyed again by a flood? These subordinate covenants were nothing more or less than the Lord’s making manifest, in an especial and public manner, the grand covenant: making known something of its glorious contents, confirming their own personal interest in it, and assuring them that Christ, the great covenant Head, should be of themselves and spring from their seed.
    ‘This is what accounts for that singular expression which occurs so frequently in Scripture: “Behold, I establish My covenant with you and your seed after you” (Gen 9:9 ). Yet there follows no mention of any conditions, or work to be done by them: only a promise of unconditional blessings. And why? Because the “conditions” were to be fulfilled and the “work” was to be done by Christ, and nothing remained but to bestow the blessings upon His people. So when David says, “He hath made with me an everlasting covenant” (2Sam 23:5 ) he simply means, God had admitted him into an interest in the everlasting covenant and made him partaker of its privileges. Hence it is that when the apostle Paul refers to the various covenants which God had made with men in Old Testament times, he styles them not “covenants of stipulations” but “covenants of promise”
    It may be thought that there is also a covenant of promise with Adam in Genesis 3:15 Although the words are addressed to the serpent, the promise is to Adam.

    The New Covenant fulfils all the other covenants. It is the implementation of the covenant of grace, its outworking in time. Christ has redeemed the people that God gave to Him in the covenant of redemption (John 6:39; 17:6). He has acted as mediator between God and men (1Tim 2:5-6) and now He calls them to Himself (John 6:37). The New Covenant is also the realization of the covenants of promise. The promises to Adam, Noah, Abraham and David pointed to Christ and are fulfilled in Him (cf. Luke 2:72). It is also the replacement for the Sinaitic or Mosaic Covenant (Hebrews 8:13; 10:9). That ‘old’ covenant fades away with the coming of the new (2Cor 3:7-8).

    The important point to note about the New Covenant is that it is in Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20; Hebrews 13:20). Unlike the old covenant, the New cannot fail (Romans 8:3-4; Hebrews 10:1-4). Christ has offered the one perfect acceptable sacrifice for sins, has gone through the heavens, opening a new and living way for us to come to God through Him (Mark 15:38; Hebrews 10:20).

     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No, it won't. This chart misses it quite badly. [

    [Derogatory comment about Baptist seminary snipped]
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I pulled it off a theology site

    I agree that the chart does not explain Covenant Theology (it misses a lot, and even includes a lot done don't use).

    It's purpose, from what I gather, is to show the differences in the different theologies. The chart messed up Dispensationalism for many as well.

    Just like Dispensationalism, Covenant Theology has several forms. Some include covenants that others reject.
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the link. RC Sproul confirmed what I thought was being said earlier.

    The “Covenant of Redemption” is an an agreement within the Godhead to bring certain people into a right relationship with God.

    It has always has been “the plan” of redemption before creation, it seems clear to me, both scripturally and logically, to be true.

    Thanks for the link.

    peace to you
     
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You do know that is what the chart I posted said as well...right?
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    And the third on Christocentric is also bad, so why even use it.
    By the way, since when does a University or Seminary get a pass when it is obviously lacking in its training? Why snip?
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It isn't a bad illustration all. Christocentric Theology became popular as an opposition to Christian Liberalism in the early 20th century (especially in Germany). The idea is man cannot know anything about God except as is revealed in Christ. It views the other two theologies as trying to know God by going around the Cross.

    The snip is because you criticized the seminary as an insult and it was not based in fact. It would have been fair to examine the seminaries academic requirements, the actual degree programs and courses offered.

    But a blanket statement that Reformed Professors at the seminary, the peered reviewed required readings from Reformed academic journals and theological resources from people like Sproul, Enns, and Packer don't explain Covenant Theology adequately isn't enough to be a factual statement. Opinion does not matter without legitimate experience of the seminary, so we have to weigh facts.

    And I read enough John Macarthur at Liberty to last two lifetimes. :Wink
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, it's a nothing burger.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I not saying it I correct, but neither Covenant Theology, Dispensationalism, or Christocentric Theology are nothing burgers. They are specific ways of looking at the divine economy and redemptive history.

    What part of Christocentric Theology do you believe is empty?
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing in your chart that actually identifies anything about Christocentric theology.
    Ultimately, both Covenant and Dispensational theology will declare they are Christocentric. So, the third claim, since there is no distinction in the chart, is really a big nothing burger. It's just a catch all for those who don't like the other two.
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There is plenty. But the chart (which is not mine) is not explaining any of those positions.

    The chart only shows the basic starting point (the focus and method of examining Scripture).

    Think of the movement in Germany to combat Christian Liberalism (early 1900's.....1910....ish). Do you not see how it differed?
     
  16. Mikey

    Mikey Active Member

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    Then why post it?
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Because it is very important. It is not explaining what those are but the thought behind each framework (it is the first thing one must know to understand the three frameworks).
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think you fail to understand the genius of the 'Christocentric' view. The very fact that it is the 'Christocentric' view makes all the other views non-Christocentric. It is automatically the understanding that all Christians ought to have. And the fact that it doesn't say anything about what that view is, is another of its strengths. It means that supporters can slag off all the other teachings that actually express what they believe, and if anyone ventures to make a criticism, they can say, "Oh no no no! That isn't what I believe at all!" And no one can contradict because they haven't said anything about anything except that Christ has done something or other which is jolly good.
    The 'Classic' understanding of the atonement is good as well. After all, who wouldn't want to have a 'Classic' understanding? It automatically makes everyone else's position 'modernist' or 'revisionist.' So long as one can be as opaque as possible about what the 'Classic' view actually is, what's not to like?

    But you're right; it is nothing but a nothing burger. :)
     
    #58 Martin Marprelate, May 3, 2023
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  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Actually, no. I couldn’t read the chart you posted.

    I am, however, glad everyone agrees on the basic understanding of the covenant of redemption.

    peace to you
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sorry. It was a quick search and post.

    I am also glad everybody agrees on the basic understanding of the covenant of redemption.

    I also hope everybody also looks up and acquired a basic understanding of Dispensationalism and Christocentric Theology.

    Otherwise they would be holding one view blindly, in ignorance of other Christian ways of viewing God's interaction with man.

    I believe we should category things under the covenants that they appear in Scripture (the covenants stated in the Bible). But this does leave gaps.

    And I believe we should recognize the dispositions stated in the Bible (but these are few).

    Ultimately I believe the Christocentric model is the best to understand redemptive history as a whole. But this is not as compartmentalized as the other two.
     
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