Creation mandate and the New Creation

[Iconoclast]

In the creation account Adam was given dominion over the earth;

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Then Adam fell and was punished for his transgression....and yet Adam's fall did not cancel this command or relieve man of this charge to have dominion.

This is spoken of in psalm 8;


8 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!


Does this fact alone indicate a Postmillenial view and point the way for the church to fulfill the Great Commission ???

If for some reason you do not agree...offer a scriptural base for your refutation...before you offer your thoughts:type:

 

[percho]

In the creation account Adam was given dominion over the earth;




Then Adam fell and was punished for his transgression....and yet Adam's fall did not cancel this command or relieve man of this charge to have dominion.

This is spoken of in psalm 8;


8 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!


Does this fact alone indicate a Postmillenial view and point the way for the church to fulfill the Great Commission ???

If for some reason you do not agree...offer a scriptural base for your refutation...before you offer your thoughts:type:

I do not think so and here is why.

Jesus came preaching the kingdom of God. He did not come preaching the church. The kingdom of God is something that is to be inherited. We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Christ however has the preeminence.

Now this is addressed in the book of Hebrews chapter 2. What is man? V6

V8 But we see not yet (even though this is what he was created for) all things put under him. V9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.

Jesus the man child born to the virgin Mary, the only begotten Son of God. The Son spoken of in Hebrews 1:2 NKJV has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The rest of verse 9 chapter 2: crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now if I understand correctly that Son has inherited by being, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
and has shed on us the Holy Spirit which makes us: Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. which we have to have inherited to be actually in the kingdom of God 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The we men will have all things put under us also.

 

[Iconoclast]

Percho

Hello Percho..thanks for your response and scripture!let's take a look;

I do not think so and here is why.

Thank you for following the format:love2:I agree with some of your post....but expand the boundaries a bit more. let see how much more we can agree on...and where we might still have to go back and forth:type:

Jesus came preaching the kingdom of God.

Agreed...with John the Reformed Baptist teaching and preaching it also!

He did not come preaching the church.

He initially came to The OT church....National Israel.They were supposed to be bearing kingdom fruit. he came to earthly Zion and Jerusalem....as king David had done ...in history and in type
2sam 5;
7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.
The Covenant promises were passed on to David and His Son...
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

So...with the coming of the King...comes the Kingdom!

The kingdom of God is something that is to be inherited. We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Christ however has the preeminence.

Yes...agreed....as we are adopted as sons we are promised the eternal benefits of living....in this Kingdom.Jesus indicates that we must enter in by being born from abovejn3...col.1says....we have been translated into the Kingdom.

This entrance into the KINGDOM.....is internal in the hearts and minds of the believer;

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That being said...Jesus rules and reigns now from the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.. The rule is in the heart of the members of the Kingdom.

The church is the earthly expression of heavenly worship and service..{or at least it is meant to be} that is the subject of this thread.

Israel as a holy nation failed to fulfill this and bear proper fruit and was rejected ...except for the elect remnant.....We are the HOLY NATION now serving King Jesus.

So I am suggesting that as the fallen IMAGE Bearer man is being restored in Christ 1cor15......so is the creation mandate to be resumed and expanded worldwide by the gospel converting the heathen until he comes.

Now this is addressed in the book of Hebrews chapter 2. What is man? V6

V8 But we see not yet (even though this is what he was created for) all things put under him. V9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.

yes,,,,,the NOT YET....I think is about ...the ..ALL THINGS put under him.There are still enemies of the cross...their are still elect sinners to be saved.
That does not mean that it has not begun however. I am suggesting not only has it begun but we should be about this 24/7 as it is kingdom living and work.

I would like to see this considered, critiqued, and improved upon




Yes...absolutely you are thinking correctly.Do not make it an either or.I believe it is a both and situation......salvation of the seed of Abraham the vs 9-17....but clearly a renewal of the creation mandate in vs 5-8....

Do you see this? Isaiah spoke of it in this way-
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.

Jesus the man child born to the virgin Mary, the only begotten Son of God. The Son spoken of in Hebrews 1:2 NKJV has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The rest of verse 9 chapter 2: crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now if I understand correctly that Son has inherited by being, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
and has shed on us the Holy Spirit which makes us: Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. which we have to have inherited to be actually in the kingdom of God 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

yes agreed this is wonderful.

The we men will have all things put under us also.

I think hebrews 2 quotes psalm 8 to say...it has started now, and will go worldwide...and continue on into the eternal state.:thumbsup:

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Does this fact alone indicate a Postmillenial view and point the way for the church to fulfill the Great Commission ???

If for some reason you do not agree...offer a scriptural base for your refutation...before you offer your thoughts:type:

Nothing in the Bible indicates a postmillenial view, and as your Scriptures don't even relate to end times, there is no need to offer a Scriptural rebuttal.

 

[Iconoclast]

Nothing in the Bible indicates a postmillenial view, and as your Scriptures don't even relate to end times, there is no need to offer a Scriptural rebuttal.

Hello dc
It does not have to be a rebuttal.it could be an addition...a helpful verse...or a different idea based on scripture......in your worldview how do you see these verses...in other. Words why were they offered in heb 2.......was dominion only for adam...or for all of us?

 

[Iconoclast]

Nothing in the Bible indicates a postmillenial view, and as your Scriptures don't even relate to end times, there is no need to offer a Scriptural rebuttal.

Where do you see the command to be fruitful and multiply and have dominion for us?

Why does the writer in Hebrews bring psalm 8 to our attention in this place in the book?

No matter which end time calendar you have....what view do you have of this...with your eschatology?

Do you see this as for the christian now?

Do you see other verses that relate to this topic?

Have you considered these verses before?

 

[Herald]

Anthony,

Even though the human race underwent corruption because of the Fall, its responsibilities have not changed. As a result of the Fall mankind is not able to completely fulfill God's charge to have dominion over all the earth. It would be a stretch to say that the triumph of the Gospel (as viewed through a post-millennial lens) would somehow be connected to mankind's dominion over creation. IMHO it makes better sense to understand that Christ, the new Adam, will rule with complete dominion over all things in the eternal state (Rev. 22:3).

 

[percho]

Percho

Hello Percho..thanks for your response and scripture!let's take a look;



Thank you for following the format:love2:I agree with some of your post....but expand the boundaries a bit more. let see how much more we can agree on...and where we might still have to go back and forth:type:


Agreed...with John the Reformed Baptist teaching and preaching it also!


He initially came to The OT church....National Israel.They were supposed to be bearing kingdom fruit. he came to earthly Zion and Jerusalem....as king David had done ...in history and in type
2sam 5;
7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.
The Covenant promises were passed on to David and His Son...
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

So...with the coming of the King...comes the Kingdom!



Yes...agreed....as we are adopted as sons we are promised the eternal benefits of living....in this Kingdom.Jesus indicates that we must enter in by being born from abovejn3...col.1says....we have been translated into the Kingdom.

This entrance into the KINGDOM.....is internal in the hearts and minds of the believer;

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That being said...Jesus rules and reigns now from the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.. The rule is in the heart of the members of the Kingdom.

The church is the earthly expression of heavenly worship and service..{or at least it is meant to be} that is the subject of this thread.

Israel as a holy nation failed to fulfill this and bear proper fruit and was rejected ...except for the elect remnant.....We are the HOLY NATION now serving King Jesus.

So I am suggesting that as the fallen IMAGE Bearer man is being restored in Christ 1cor15......so is the creation mandate to be resumed and expanded worldwide by the gospel converting the heathen until he comes.


yes,,,,,the NOT YET....I think is about ...the ..ALL THINGS put under him.There are still enemies of the cross...their are still elect sinners to be saved.
That does not mean that it has not begun however. I am suggesting not only has it begun but we should be about this 24/7 as it is kingdom living and work.

I would like to see this considered, critiqued, and improved upon




Yes...absolutely you are thinking correctly.Do not make it an either or.I believe it is a both and situation......salvation of the seed of Abraham the vs 9-17....but clearly a renewal of the creation mandate in vs 5-8....

Do you see this? Isaiah spoke of it in this way-
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.






yes agreed this is wonderful.



I think hebrews 2 quotes psalm 8 to say...it has started now, and will go worldwide...and continue on into the eternal state.:thumbsup:

Here is what I believe and where I think we will disagree.

True on what you stated here at the end, "it has started now." It started in the resurrect man child Jesus the Christ. Up to the present in one as Israel was started in one Abraham.

It will be completed when the church becomes the same as the One in whom it was started and that will come by the same resurrection/instant change of those in him at his appearing. As here;

This verse is about being in, inheriting the kingdom of God. 1 Thess 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, (That is how it was started with the One with whom it was started. Jesus) even so, (by resurrection from the dead. ) them also which sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ)
will God bring (into the kingdom of God) with him. (with Jesus)

We have received the Spirit of God through Jesus Christ.

Questions? Heb. 1:2 says the Son, God the Father I assume, was made to be heir of all things.

Would it be incorrect to believe one of the all things that this Son whose name was Jesus who is the Christ, would inherit would be the kingdom of God?

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1 John 4:2 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6 YLT

Now the Spirit of Truth tells us that Jesus the Christ came by the water and the blood in the flesh. Jesus the Christ was flesh and blood.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50

Did that apply to Jesus?

John 3:6 1st part. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; Was Jesus born of flesh and was Jesus flesh? John 3:3 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Was Jesus prophetically speaking of himself also?

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim 2:5

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46

Presently those two verses only apply to one who has been born of woman.
The One, who came into the world as the first man Adam and has been changed as the last Adam to quickened spirit by resurrection from the dead.

The firstborn from the dead. Col.1:18

I believe the church will be born again as the kingdom of God by the gates of Hades not having prevailed against her at the appearing of Jesus.

Contextually I also believe this would stand with Daniel.

 

[percho]

Hello dc
It does not have to be a rebuttal.it could be an addition...a helpful verse...or a different idea based on scripture......in your worldview how do you see these verses...in other. Words why were they offered in heb 2.......was dominion only for adam...or for all of us?

All of us but in a born again Adam.

 

[Iconoclast]

Herald

Hello Herald and thank you for this helpful post.

Even though the human race underwent corruption because of the Fall, its responsibilities have not changed.

Even after the flood it was spoken of;
15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,

16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.

17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

As a result of the Fall mankind is not able to completely fulfill God's charge to have dominion over all the earth.

I agree with this in part.this is somewhat where my questions arrive from however...i will explain....

IMHO it makes better sense to understand that Christ, the new Adam, will rule with complete dominion over all things in the eternal state (Rev. 22:3).

Now i am happy to say that I am in substantial agreement with this to an extent.If I fully agreed it would leave me without any questions:laugh:

I believe that this is a part of our great future reserved in heaven for us, who are kept by the power of God.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It would be a stretch to say that the triumph of the Gospel (as viewed through a post-millennial lens) would somehow be connected to mankind's dominion over creation.

Now...here is what I am and have been for the past few years looking into as far as where we fit in this....
Man fallen in Adam is not able to really fulfill this mandate.
Yet the saints in the new covenant under the heavenly rule of the KING are to be willing bondslaves in the kingdom...bearing fruit...unlike Ot israel which failed the test, so to speak..mt 21:43....

If Jesus as the last Adam is conforming us to His Image by the indwelling Spirit, bringing us through this life with it's sufferings and trials....

Are we to a major extent to take the lead among all other men in fulfilling the creation mandate.

Now I agree in the eternal state it will be fulfilled for sure.But in the mean time what are we to be about.
The two principles I am thinking of would be like in romans 6:1-3....shall we continue in sin that grace may abound...God forbid....In light of who we are In christ we can no longer live in the practice of sin....so we in progressive sanctification begin to mortify sin by The Spirit's enabling us.Until the eternal state when sin will be no more...yet...we mortify the deeds of the body now.

We do not say...well sin will be here until i am out of this body...so i will just get cozy with sin...no...we by the grace of God pray and do....

Now the second is a similar thought. We are told in Hebrews 12:1414 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;

In the eternal state we will be perfected in holiness...but we are told to Give diligence here and now. We are not to be slack and just coast.

Liberals perverted some of the postmill ideals....I reject the liberals, yet i see the postmill writers trying or striving to carry out the creation mandate...as restored Image-bearers ...more and more reflecting the Lord Jesus Christ.

At this point there are a few good contemporary writers offering on this.
The caution is not to repeat the errors of perhaps some of the puritans in going into a full blown theonomy.

The modern writers are offering verses that indicate it is not "social action"of the liberals...but rather regeneration by new birth that brings about this change as the gospel spreads worldwide.

So....I am searching for how this would look in'

1]the individual christian

2] the christian family

3] the church

4] the workplace

5] the mission field outside our own areas

 

[percho]

Anthony,

Even though the human race underwent corruption because of the Fall, its responsibilities have not changed. As a result of the Fall mankind is not able to completely fulfill God's charge to have dominion over all the earth. It would be a stretch to say that the triumph of the Gospel (as viewed through a post-millennial lens) would somehow be connected to mankind's dominion over creation. IMHO it makes better sense to understand that Christ, the new Adam, will rule with complete dominion over all things in the eternal state (Rev. 22:3).

I understand it more as in Gen 1 things as a renewal and through Adam there would come a new creation. That new creation begin with Jesus the firstborn from the dead even the new creation of Adam, man in that born from the dead image. Verse 15 of Colossians 1 is post resurrectional;

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

It is the firstborn from dead Jesus who is the Adam created in the image of the invisible God not the first man Adam the living soul. He was created to being about the last Adam though the woman taken from him. She is the help meet.

I believe before the foundation of the world God through Christ was reconciling the world (which was dead before Adam was created) unto himself, which required the creation of Adam to bring about the Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand it more as in Gen 1 things as a renewal and through Adam there would come a new creation. That new creation begin with Jesus the firstborn from the dead even the new creation of Adam, man in that born from the dead image. Verse 15 of Colossians 1 is post resurrectional;

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

It is the firstborn from dead Jesus who is the Adam created in the image of the invisible God not the first man Adam the living soul. He was created to being about the last Adam though the woman taken from him. She is the help meet.

I believe before the foundation of the world God through Christ was reconciling the world (which was dead before Adam was created) unto himself, which required the creation of Adam to bring about the Christ.

What about the command to be fruitful and multiply and have dominion.What or how does that command mean to us now?

 

[percho]

What about the command to be fruitful and multiply and have dominion.What or how does that command mean to us now?

As here?

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

I believe the living soul man has fulfilled that. Messed up a lot of it however.
And as you said I think Heb. 2:8 sheds more light on things than Gen 1:28. Course Heb comes from Ps 8.

That's a good question. What do you think concerning your question?

 

[Herald]

Now I agree in the eternal state it will be fulfilled for sure.But in the mean time what are we to be about.
The two principles I am thinking of would be like in romans 6:1-3....shall we continue in sin that grace may abound...God forbid....In light of who we are In christ we can no longer live in the practice of sin....so we in progressive sanctification begin to mortify sin by The Spirit's enabling us.Until the eternal state when sin will be no more...yet...we mortify the deeds of the body now.

We do not say...well sin will be here until i am out of this body...so i will just get cozy with sin...no...we by the grace of God pray and do....

Good morning, brother.

I see more of sanctification in your words than eschatology. The fact is that the human race is fallen because of sin. We have a partial promise of the New Covenant now; namely the new birth. But we still, with the rest of creation, groan, "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23). Could this happen under a post-mil schema? Perhaps. But I see it more in keeping with a creation that has been subject to futility because of sin, and is waiting eagerly, "for the revealing of the sons of God" (Rom. 8:19) which will occur at Christ's second coming.

Of course, as always, IMHO.

 

[Iconoclast]

Herald

Good morning, brother.

Good afternoon Herald...lunch break in Iowa:laugh:

I see more of sanctification in your words than eschatology.

Well yes....you can see what I am struggling to reconcile.Any chance of a biblical christian worldview begins with progress in growth, holiness, a service to the King. It is the extent of that service I am examining.

The fact is that the human race is fallen because of sin. We have a partial promise of the New Covenant now; namely the new birth. But we still, with the rest of creation, groan, "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23). Could this happen under a post-mil schema? Perhaps.

When I say I am in between post mill and amill...it is because of this section of scripture in part. David Englesma in his defence of reformed amill....goes hard on the postmill men on this point;

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/amil.html

Here, in the Old Testament prophecies that hold out grand prospects for the future, is the bulwark of postmillennialism. Messiah's rule over the nations with the iron rod, of Psalm 2; the peaceful kingdom, of Psalm 72; the filling of the earth with the knowledge of Jehovah, of Isaiah 11; the prosperous condition of the saints, of Isaiah 65; and the little stone filling the whole earth, of Daniel 2 - these are the prophecies and these are the passages that ground, and motivate, postmillennialism.

Avoiding the New Testament Testimony

There is a reason for this. There is a reason why postmillennialism deliberately takes its stand on Old Testament Scripture. The reason is that the New Testament is against their theory of a coming "golden age" for the church before the return of Christ. The massive testimony of the New Testament is that the little flock of Christ will suffer tribulation throughout the present age. At the end, lawlessness will increase in the world, there will be great apostasy in the sphere of the visible church, Antichrist will be revealed, and the saints will endure great persecution (Luke 12:32; John 15:18ff.; Matt. 24:3-31; II Thess. 2:3ff.; Revelation).

and again here;
The whole New Testament, which was written from the viewpoint of the "church under the cross," speaks the same language. Believers ... should not expect anything on earth other than suffering and oppression (Rom. 8:36; Phil. 1:29). They are sojourners and foreigners (Heb. 11:13); their citizenship is in the heavens (Phil. 3:20).... Therefore, along with the entire groaning creation, they wait with eager longing for the future of Christ and for the revelation of the glory of the children of God (Rom. 8:19; I Cor. 15:48 f.), a glory with which the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing (Rom. 8:18; 2 Cor. 4:17). Nowhere in the New Testament is there a ray of hope that the church of Christ will again come to power and dominion on earth.
here he offers a counter attack...

The dubious honor, however, of the fiercest, and most wicked, attack on amillenialism belongs to the father of Christian Reconstructionism, Rousas J. Rushdoony. Lumping amillennialism with premillennialism (and we will see about this in a forthcoming article), Rushdoony has dared to write:

Amillennialism ... (is) in retreat from the world and blasphemously surrender(s) it to the devil. By its very premise that the world will only get worse ... it cuts the nerve of Christian action....
If we hold that the world can only get worse ... what impetus is left for applying the word of God to the problems of this world? The result is an inevitable one: amillennial believers who profess faith in the whole word of God ... are also the most impotent segment of American society, with the least impact on American life. To turn the world-conquering word of the sovereign, omnipotent, and triune God into a symbol of impotence is not a mark of faith. It is blasphemy ("Postmillennialism versus Impotent Religion," Journal of Christian Reconstruction, pp. 126, 127).

But I see it more in keeping with a creation that has been subject to futility because of sin, and is waiting eagerly, "for the revealing of the sons of God" (Rom. 8:19) which will occur at Christ's second coming.

Of course, as always, IMHO.

So....I am fishing around...trying to avoid.... world- flight but yet serve and live life to the full.Not only on personal sanctification, but how does it influence everyone around us...family, church family, workplace, missions, strangers, political involvement ,the enviroment...

I do not want to rest content...thinking....okay , in the eternal state all will be well.[and it will for sure}
However here and now we are bound to ONLY STRUGGLE and frustration.We must just huddle together with an inward focus...and in Englesma's words...we are in for horrendous times at the end of this age.

 

[Iconoclast]

percho

That's a good question. What do you think concerning your question?

I just spoke more of my concern in my response to Herald.

Do we circle the wagons and be defensive because things can only get worse?

Are we only to be inward focused? in other words..God saves us, we know that we have eternal life. So do we just live a quiet ,clean life, as the world spirals down....only snatching out an occasional sinner from the fire?

Or....do we keep ourselves and our homes, churches in order...but move out aggressively to have an impact in the here and now...the already...be fore we get to...the time known as the not yet[heaven]
Should we be concerned about politics...run for office?
What about the enviroment? Should we be active in opposing fracking destroying the drinking water...so we can get"clean natural gas"...or just let it happen however it happens because it is all going bad anyhow,and going to be destroyed.

At this point....and I am not dogmatic about this...I am still considering the whole issue. I like the post mill view of how to live.....even if....the Amill or historic premill was the correct calendar.

 

[Herald]

I do not want to rest content...thinking....okay , in the eternal state all will be well.[and it will for sure}
However here and now we are bound to ONLY STRUGGLE and frustration.We must just huddle together with an inward focus...and in Englesma's words...we are in for horrendous times at the end of this age.

And there is no reason why you should. While I do not believe the Gospel will triumph according to the post-mil schema, I do believe it will triumph in that all the elect will be brought in before the second coming. Our labors should be spent being used by God to that end. Even though we struggle against a mighty foe, neither he nor his agents can thwart God's redemptive plan and the bringing in of those whom He has appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48).

 

[percho]

percho



I just spoke more of my concern in my response to Herald.

Do we circle the wagons and be defensive because things can only get worse?

Are we only to be inward focused? in other words..God saves us, we know that we have eternal life. So do we just live a quiet ,clean life, as the world spirals down....only snatching out an occasional sinner from the fire?

Or....do we keep ourselves and our homes, churches in order...but move out aggressively to have an impact in the here and now...the already...be fore we get to...the time known as the not yet[heaven]
Should we be concerned about politics...run for office?
What about the enviroment? Should we be active in opposing fracking destroying the drinking water...so we can get"clean natural gas"...or just let it happen however it happens because it is all going bad anyhow,and going to be destroyed.

At this point....and I am not dogmatic about this...I am still considering the whole issue. I like the post mill view of how to live.....even if....the Amill or historic premill was the correct calendar.

I think, I think Romans 8 answers a lot of these questions.

We suffer with him that we might also.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves

We live our lives rejoicing in the Lord, I say again rejoice.

Waiting for:

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

To me the manifestation of the sons of God is the millenial which would have us currently as pre. After the manifestation of the sons of God then the residue of men will seek after the Lord and his brethren, the sons of God.

And the whole world will be a better place for also at that time Satan will be bound.

I understand you do not have this understanding. And that is also OK. That is the reason we are on this board discussing opinions.

 

[percho]

Let me put it this way. We can go vote for who we want as President and I do.

However in my heart I believe who God wants as President according to his purpose is who will be President.

We should live according to the word of God. I believe that verse above and other verses that speak of suffering with Christ and or for his sake say a lot.

 

[percho]

percho



I just spoke more of my concern in my response to Herald.

Do we circle the wagons and be defensive because things can only get worse?

Are we only to be inward focused? in other words..God saves us, we know that we have eternal life. So do we just live a quiet ,clean life, as the world spirals down....only snatching out an occasional sinner from the fire?

Or....do we keep ourselves and our homes, churches in order...but move out aggressively to have an impact in the here and now...the already...be fore we get to...the time known as the not yet[heaven]
Should we be concerned about politics...run for office?
What about the enviroment? Should we be active in opposing fracking destroying the drinking water...so we can get"clean natural gas"...or just let it happen however it happens because it is all going bad anyhow,and going to be destroyed.

At this point....and I am not dogmatic about this...I am still considering the whole issue. I like the post mill view of how to live.....even if....the Amill or historic premill was the correct calendar.

Question?

Do you think my understanding of this; Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14 as being prior millennium, and Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things; As being during millennium, as being incorrect?