CREDIBILITY IMPORTANT FOR WITNESS?

All one has to do is look at which denominations presently hold to evolution and then look what they are presently dealing with.

Anglican---Homosexual priests and bishops. Women priests.

Methodist---Questioning of the virgin birth. Women clergy and acceptance of homosexuality.

Roman Catholics-----High percentage of child molestors as priests and re-thinking Trinity doctrine.

 

You are not showing a causal link. You are not showing how an acceptance of an old earth leads directly or even indirectly to these other things. I HAVE shown how people that try and defend a YE position will sometimes resort to dishonest and sinful ways to do so. God does not need us to lie for Him.

Edit to add...

For instance, do you think the RC's sexual abuse problems are more likely related to evolution or to their celebacy requirements?

[ September 15, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: UTEOTW ]

 

I feel it has everything to do with the fact that MANY if not MOST Roman Catholics believe salvation comes through carrying out ritual obligation and "Authoritative Church" absolution. The priests doing these acts are most likely NOT saved. They really don't know what Saved is. They simply believe that they are an active part of a governing body that they believe is THE CHURCH. I believe GOD has turned the Roman Catholic church over to judgment and this seems to escalate as that church turns away from the Bible and clings to TRADITION.

 

Therein lies a main problem. There is an abundance of folks who insist that, if you don't take Genesis literally, that you doubt God's word. Scripture only requires that we accept it as being true in matters of doctrine. It does not require that we accept it cover to cover as fact. If we had to take it as fact, we'd have some serious issues with scripture contradicting itself in several places. Also, if we reqire scripture to be taken as 100% fact, then we are adding a doctrine to scripture, something as Christians we're forbidden from doing.

I concur with Charles Meadows. I don't wish to argue the issue of YEC vs OEC et al. Rather, my concern is with the issue that Charles brings up so well.

 

I'm responding to Charles here without reading the other stuff yet.

Charles, there is a large part of what you say where I agree with you. Jesus saves. Only Jesus, not any intellectual position or even understanding. And I do think the majority of Christians simply have faith in Him without worrying about the rest. I can no way fault anyone for simple, direct faith in Christ.

However, there are those Christians and "Christian wannabes" who get pretty hung up on the apparent discrepancies between Genesis (which the rest of the Bible supports as literal truth) and science as she are spoke today.

The fact of the matter is that it is the interpretation of the data and ignoring some large sections of it which allow evolutionists and old-earthers to proclaim ancient ages. The data itself supports exactly what the Bible tells us -- that we live in a young universe. The problem is that so many are so steeped in evolutionary explanations (as I once was), they can't get out of that box.

But true science agrees with the Bible. And this is apart from the ridiculous arguments by some popularizers and the sloppy science by many on both sides of the question.

Keep in mind that your presuppositions generally determine what your conclusions are going to be when looking at data. For instance, an evolutionists can see a particular fossil and declare it a transitional, whereas a creationist with equal credibility scientifically will see a variation.

But getting back to the lost, the Bible gives us some specific orders. We are to answer questions. I told my kids that this means they should live their lives in such a way that will cause the lost to ask questions and, second, to know the Bible and the Lord well enough to be able to answer those questions. Even in the years of evolution/creation debates and discussions I have participated on on the net, I have found that the facts take second place to the manner in which they are presented. It is the character of the Christian which makes the difference, and it is a shame more Christians or so-called Christians do not seem to be aware of that. It is Christ in you which draws people, not elucidation of history or science or philosophy or even the Bible itself.

But for those who do want to know what the data says, there are strong indications that the universe is quite young, as is, of course, the earth and life itself.

In other words, God can be trusted in His Word. And knowing that does help build up the body of Christ.

 

Amen!

 

I'd love scientists to say that they would research every Jot and Tiddle of Scripture. The problem lies in the public educational plight that Biblical matters are RELIGIOUS and there is a WALL OF SEPARATION that suddenly seems to have manifested itself in 1963... This false and bias interpretation of the Constitution has done alot more than just keep prevent occasional Bible reading out of the classroom. It placed a wall between communication, logic and interaction believers and non-believers once shared freely. We have been growing apart ever since.

 

The church certainly IS evolving. When I was a kid it was emphasized over and over among us baptists that we BELIEVED in the seperation of church and state. They'd give historical examples of Roger Williams and the Rhode Island Colony setting up the first non-religious government, they'd oppose school vouchers on the very grounds government shouldn't support religion, and so forth. This was in the late 40's, and the 50's.

My, how times have changed.

 

A writing, be it scripture or any other writing, is not scientific evidence.

 

A writing, be it scripture or any other writing, is not scientific evidence. </font>[/QUOTE]You will not prove anything if you keep that narrow opinion. Everything is worthy of study----not just the secular.

 

In the 40's and 50's children could listen to a Bible quotes or read a portion during the commencement excercises without intimidation, too.
Maybe there are deeper reasons why little Billy can't read and lacks any gumption. What a silly nation we sadly have become.

 

I did not say scripture is not worthy of study. I said it is not scientific evidence. It is most definitely worthy of study.

 

The Bible does contain HISTORIC data and details that could offer much insight to the blind, if only they would ponder over it cover to cover... The FLOOD is only one of the most profound judgment epic. I believe it to be HISTORIC FACT. As such a fact it MUST have effected the data scientists encounter. To ignore it as religious fiction is a TERRIBLE mistake ------ I can only imagine but one reason to do so, ATHEISM...

 

ISAIAH 5:18

Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope: that say, let him make speed, hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
Woe unto them that call evil good, that call good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Therefore as the tonque of fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST AWAY THE LAW OF THE LORD OF HOSTS, AND DESPISED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

 

I find the Creationists I've read are a very modest and humble group as a whole. They praise GOD for both what they understand and what they do not. Evolutionists seem rather to curse the darkness and reserve any credit for themselves...

 

I find myself agreeing with both of the previous posts. The YEC's I know are modest, humble, and faithful Christians. But they also tend to make blanket statements that anyone who believes differently than they is not a real Christian.