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Credibility without Accountability?

Acts 1:8

New Member
"890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
I don't remember Christ ever teaching that. If Catholics hold this to be true, can we assume that it applied to Paul as a shepard of the church when he wrote to Timothy?

1 Timothy 1
14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.
 

Lorelei

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.
Originally posted by trying2understand:
To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals.
I still don't see how infallible doesn't mean infallible here. Where did the definition change?

~Lorelei
 
Originally posted by Lorelei:
I still don't see how infallible doesn't mean infallible here. Where did the definition change?

~Lorelei [/QB]
Well, dear, that is why I posted more than just that one sentence, so that you could understand the context and thus the meaning of the word.

Did you read the whole thing? It really isn't that long.
 
Originally posted by AdoptedByGod:
If Catholics hold this to be true, can we assume that it applied to Paul as a shepard of the church when he wrote to Timothy?

1 Timothy 1
14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. [/QB]
Sure, but what is your point?

Do you think that any Catholic makes the claim that Popes and Bishops do not sin? Because we don't.

Again, what is your point?
 

Acts 1:8

New Member
"890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
Paul also instructed believers to Test everything and hold on to the good. Does this not apply to certain individuals?

1 Thess 5
19Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
It is well further to explain:


that infallibility means more than exemption from actual error; it means exemption from the possibility of error;

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

To which I say, of course, hogwash.
 

Acts 1:8

New Member
As a Catholic, I'd be thoroughly confused because on one hand I'd have the church telling me that they are absolutely never wrong on moral/faith matters, but on the other hand, Paul who technically would fall under the Catholic church according to Catholics (correct me if I'm wrong) says "Test ALL things, hold onto the good"

If I were a Catholic, which one would I choose?
 

Lorelei

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.
Originally posted by trying2understand:

Did you read the whole thing? It really isn't that long.
Yes I did, now can you answer my question?

~Lorelei
 
Originally posted by Lorelei:
Yes I did, now can you answer my question?

~Lorelei [/QB]
You mean your question, "Where did the definition change?"

Words can have several different meanings especially when considering context.

In this discussion we are talking about the meaning of the word infallible within the context of the Catholic Church.

Has the definition changed within that context?

I don't know that it has.

Could you give the old and the new definitions within that context so that we may together answer your question?
 

Lorelei

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.
Originally posted by trying2understand:
In this discussion we are talking about the meaning of the word infallible within the context of the Catholic Church.

Has the definition changed within that context?

I don't know that it has.


Nor do I, but in defending the church someone claimed the definition changed over time. I was trying to see what they were claiming.

Originally posted by JFS:
What if the terminology was correct when the doctrine was proclamed? Maybe it is the meaning of the word Infalable that has changed over time. Should we change it to suit you?
According to catholics doesn't it mean that in matters of faith and morals the catholic church's teachings are free from error and as Bro. Curtis pointed out free from even the possibility of error?

I don't see how in this context infallibile does not mean free from error.

~Lorelei
 

Deacon's Son

New Member
Hi Lorelei,

I'd like to respond to a few of your recent comments, if I may.

The catholic church proclaims to be THE church of Christ. They have no proof.
Actually, the "proof" is in the history. Either the Catholic Church is the same historic Church founded by the Apostles, retaining the fullness of faith written and preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Holy Spirit through Apostolic Succession down to this very day or with all due respect, there are a few things you need to explain:

1. Your allegiance to (and solely to) the Bible, the canon of which was decided by councils of the Catholic Church.

2. Your practice (I assume) of Sunday worship (instead of Saturday Sabbath observance)with such scanty Scriptural evidence for such a practice.

3. The reason why you do not (I assume) make use of the practice of proxy baptism which is clearly Scriptural, being mentioned matter-of-factly by the Apostle Paul without the slightest hint of condemnation in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor 15:29).

4. Your calculation of and even your observance of an annual celebration of Christ's Resurrection (Easter), taking into account the fact that this is noowhere mentioned in Scripture. This also goes for your celebration of Christmas on Dec. 25 (a practice that did not appear until at least the Fourth Century).

These are just a few examples of practices and beliefs that are not explicitly Scriptural and/or are later (and natural) developments of the Catholic Church. This is recorded history. So, if you think that the Catholic Church is so wrong, why adhere to the decisions of that Church on such issues? It seems that, in honesty to your faith, you would want to peel off all that is Catholic and not explicitly Scriptural in your beliefs and practices.

The catholic church proclaims to be infallible in doctrine. They have no proof.
Actually, the Catholic Church is made up of sinful and fallible human beings in need of the salvation only available through Jesus Christ (yes, even the pope). It is the Holy Spirit, the guide of the Church and her shepherds that is infallible.

The catholic church proclaims to be proclaiming the gospel. They have no proof.
? No offense, but you can't be serious about this one. The Catholic Church has been proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ for nearly 2,000 years now. What more proof do you need?

The catholic church proclaims to believe the Bible is the Word of God and that they hold it infallible and teach it's doctrine. They have no proof.
Once again, I can't believe you are serious about this one, either. A good tip is that if you want to know what the Catholic Church believes on any subject, defined in an easy-to-understand manner, turn to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. On this subject, I quote:

"Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely...For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body. In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, 'but as what it really is, the word of God.' 'In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.'" (CCC 102-104).

So we can't disprove your doctrine unscriptural, because to you, your interpretation is right, and therefore can't be questioned. Because your church "said so".
And to you, your interpretation is right, and therefore can't be questioned. Textual criticism and context analysis aside, there are still some pretty "grey" areas on some subjects in the Bible.

I argue that this is because God didn't guide the writing and compilation of the Bible for every individual Christian to be their own theologian and magisterium (if so, the mass numbers of illiterate believers throughout history have been at a distinct disadvantage). No, Scripture was compiled by the Church, protected by the Church, promulgated by the Church for the purposes of :preserving the writings of the Old Covenant and of the Apostolic Church, teaching the faith and for use in liturgical worship. Once again, history is on my side.

God bless.

In Officio Agnus,
Deacon's Son
 

LisaMC

New Member
So, what I've wondered is, if we are to believe that Matt 16:18/19 establishes papal infallibility, how or when did, Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

become: " . . . whatsoever in regards to faith and morals ONLY . . . "
 

Acts 1:8

New Member
Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
I've pointed this out to the contributors of this forum before, but for a refresher and for the newcomers:

Index of Logical Fallacies

THANK GOD I'm not the only one who sees it!!! Some of the posts here make me want to aim my .44 magnum (AKA the Boat Anchor) at the screen and unload
 

LisaMC

New Member
Forgive me, but I am a little new, sometimes rather slow-witted, and often paranoid. So, having said that, were the last couple of posts in anyway referring to me?
 

Clint Kritzer

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by LisaMC:
Forgive me, but I am a little new, sometimes rather slow-witted, and often paranoid. So, having said that, were the last couple of posts in anyway referring to me?
Looking over the one other post that you contributed to this thread I would have to say no.

But I'll be watching you now! LOL
 

LisaMC

New Member
I'm digging up an old point here, however, Lorelei said:
"I can prove that they practice sex with minors regardless of what they "teach" about it. That is the point, what is this a church that says do I say, not as I do?"
Show me responded:
Same can be said about one of our local Baptist pastors in a nearby town!
Show me do you have any idea what happened to that Baptist minister once he was caught? What about Jimmy Swaggart? I can answer about Jimmy Swaggart--he was defrocked.
 
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