Creeds vs. Bible

[Yeshua1]

Me too. I would never join any church that did not have a clear, Biblical confession of faith (not necessarily the 1689).
The church where I was saved almost exactly 30 years ago had the claim that it 'just followed the Bible.' It still makes the claim, but the Gospel is no longer preached there. It is desperately sad.

Some churches have even gone so far as to deny the physical return of Christ in glory at the end of the age. A clear confession of faith would have prevented that.

many Baptist churches have detailed statement of beliefs, that pretty much serve same function as Confessions do in reformed churches.

 

[Yeshua1]

Bible verse please. Especially the physical.

Jesus bodily rose in the SAME body that he was put to death in, just was now glorified! To deny the physical bodily resurrection is heresy!

 

[HankD]

actually most of RCC teaching and much of Protestantism is Preterist by default in that they ignore the dogma of the bodily Second Coming. Tom does not (per the resurrection) THOUGH he differs greatly in details afterwards.

as a child i was taught NOTHING about the return of Christ.

As a Catholic adult years ago looking for answers - the return of Christ was conveyed in a spiritual sense through His "Mystical Body" the church and the Real Presence. Something similar is also the belief of a great deal of 21st century Protestantism, Christ has returned in a spiritual messianic sense (Neo-orthodoxy) through the church community.

nothing more, i do however remember the nuns telling us God will someday destroy the earth with fire.

 

[asterisktom]

actually most of RCC teaching and much of Protestantism is Preterist by default in that they ignore the dogma of the bodily Second Coming. Tom does not (per the resurrection) THOUGH he differs greatly in details afterwards.

as a child i was taught NOTHING about the return of Christ.

As a Catholic adult years ago looking for answers - the return of Christ was conveyed in a spiritual sense through His "Mystical Body" the church and the Real Presence. Something similar is also the belief of a great deal of 21st century Protestantism, Christ has returned in a spiritual messianic sense (Neo-orthodoxy) through the church community.

nothing more, i do however remember the nuns telling us God will someday destroy the earth with fire.

Thank you, Hank, for stating succinctly my beliefs. Not everyone here does that.

 

[asterisktom]

I know enough to know that JW's are deceived about Christ having come and set up His Kingdom just like you.


This I do not disagree with.

The same as what scripture says about that rod of Iron.
Psa_2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What I understand of these verses is that Jesus will beat those countries with that rod. He will break them to pieces.. If Christ has already came then where is He?
MB

Your disagreement is not just with me but with the church in Acts. They understood the fulfillment of Psalm 2 to have happened in their time. This is reaffirmed elsewhere in the NT. See Acts 2:34, 35; 13:33; Heb. 1:13; 12:2; and I Pet. 3:22.

Take a look also at a cross reference, Psalm 110, where God says of Christ

"rule thou in the midst of thine enemies"


It presupposes that there are enemies. This is not some imagined future time of universal peace, but of conflict and opposition.

Where is Christ? He is here now. Just because the Kingdom did not come with observation does not mean it is not here right now.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your disagreement is not just with me but with the church in Acts. They understood the fulfillment of Psalm 2 to have happened in their time. This is reaffirmed elsewhere in the NT. See Acts 2:34, 35; 13:33; Heb. 1:13; 12:2; and I Pet. 3:22.

Take a look also at a cross reference, Psalm 110, where God says of Christ

"rule thou in the midst of thine enemies"


It presupposes that there are enemies. This is not some imagined future time of universal peace, but of conflict and opposition.

Where is Christ? He is here now. Just because the Kingdom did not come with observation does not mean it is not here right now.

It is here in part, but when He returns the Second time, His Kingdom shall then be in full!

 

[asterisktom]

It is here in part, but when He returns the Second time, His Kingdom shall then be in full!

So Christ is an absentee King? How does that work out?

Read what the Bible says about His kingdom. It does not come partially. Where is that in Scripture? And His kingdom has no end.

Either His Kingdom is all here or it is not at all here.

And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,


God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13.32 - 33

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12.2

Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1 Peter 3.22

I have given three verse to show Christ is reigning now. Show me just one where His kingdom is only in part. Or is not here at all.

 

[Yeshua1]

So Christ is an absentee King? How does that work out?

Read what the Bible says about His kingdom. It does not come partially. Where is that in Scripture? And His kingdom has no end.

Either His Kingdom is all here or it is not at all here.

And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,


God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13.32 - 33

he has not come back yet, we have not yet been glorified, and BOTH must appear to have his Kingdom come on earth as now in heaven!

 

[MB]

Your disagreement is not just with me but with the church in Acts. They understood the fulfillment of Psalm 2 to have happened in their time. This is reaffirmed elsewhere in the NT. See Acts 2:34, 35; 13:33; Heb. 1:13; 12:2; and I Pet. 3:22.

Take a look also at a cross reference, Psalm 110, where God says of Christ

"rule thou in the midst of thine enemies"


It presupposes that there are enemies. This is not some imagined future time of universal peace, but of conflict and opposition.

Where is Christ? He is here now. Just because the Kingdom did not come with observation does not mean it is not here right now.

Why is it He does not show His face? Was His return to be kept secret ? nope Christ said
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together..

Maybe we don't believe in the same Jesus.
Your view is just speculation not fact The name of Jesus isn't mentioned. Not only this If this is about Jesus why would God make Him a member of the order of Melchizedek. That would be placing Christ under the rule of someone else. No one but the Father was over Christ.
MB

 

[asterisktom]

Why is it He does not show His face? Was His return to be kept secret ? nope Christ said
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together..

Maybe we don't believe in the same Jesus.
Your view is just speculation not fact The name of Jesus isn't mentioned. Not only this If this is about Jesus why would God make Him a member of the order of Melchizedek. That would be placing Christ under the rule of someone else. No one but the Father was over Christ.
MB

Maybe you are calling my salvation into question. You should not do that. But that is on you.

Your verses miss the point. Christ said the Kingdom does not come with observation. Paul says in 2 Cor. 4 that those things that are unseen are eternal.

Your verses are not about the visibility of the kingdom but the quickness of the effects of His coming. He came to Jerusalem - that is where the carcass was, the dead body of the Old Covenant professors, and carried out judgment. His instrument in this case, his rod of iron, was the Roman legions. Their presence was symbolized by their standards, the eagles. The eagles came where the corpse was. The effects of this had a profound and deadly effect on Jews throughout the Empire. This can all be verified by reading Josephus.

 

[asterisktom]

Jesus bodily rose in the SAME body that he was put to death in, just was now glorified! To deny the physical bodily resurrection is heresy!

I may have said this to you maybe a dozen times but for the sake of others reading this I will say it again -- I certainly affirm the physical resurrection of Christ. I always have. How many times must I tell you this?

 

[HankD]

our disagreement centers on the word "bodily" and the timing thereof.

Indeed time must come to an end - entropy is synchronized and built into the material universe - sin and death cannot go on forever. this mortal clock ticks down. what then?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why is it He does not show His face? Was His return to be kept secret ? nope Christ said
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together..

Maybe we don't believe in the same Jesus.
Your view is just speculation not fact The name of Jesus isn't mentioned. Not only this If this is about Jesus why would God make Him a member of the order of Melchizedek. That would be placing Christ under the rule of someone else. No one but the Father was over Christ.
MB

Jesus return will be dramatic and physical appearance, as the entire earth shall notice His appearing, not the spiritual one that the JW and pretierists hold with as being!

 

[Yeshua1]

I may have said this to you maybe a dozen times but for the sake of others reading this I will say it again -- I certainly affirm the physical resurrection of Christ. I always have. How many times must I tell you this?

Will we also be physical gloried and raised up at His second coming event?

 

[HankD]

Tom believes in a physical resurrection of the Lord which sets him apart from JW's.

 

[Yeshua1]

Tom believes in a physical resurrection of the Lord which sets him apart from JW's.

he though sees the second coming has already happened, and that we will have a spiritual but not a physical resurrection! That is very JW!

 

[HankD]

he though sees the second coming has already happened, and that we will have a spiritual but not a physical resurrection! That is very JW!

Again in terms of 21st century non-JW Christendom we the fundamentalists are in the minority.
most nominal Christians have no idea or only do lip service to the literal resurrection of a literal glorified body.

A few years ago right here at the BB those of us who insisted upon a literal resurrection in a literal body were likened to "zombie" Christians.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again in terms of 21st century non-JW Christendom we the fundamentalists are in the minority.
most nominal Christians have no idea or only do lip service to the literal resurrection of a literal glorified body.

A few years ago right here at the BB those of us who insisted upon a literal resurrection in a literal body were likened to "zombie" Christians.

The historical position of the Church has been to see it otherwise was heresy!

 

[HankD]

The historical position of the Church has been to see it otherwise was heresy!

times have changed.

 

[Yeshua1]

times have changed.

Scripture doctrines do not!