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Critique of the ESV

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is true. Every translation weakens the English understanding of the Hebrew/Greek text in some areas and strengthens it in other areas.

Case in point. My English version of choice for my personal reading and study is the New KJV. (This is largely due to my "Byzantine Priority" textual position.)

1 Corinthians 1:18 in the NKJV reads "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

However, the same verse in the old KJV reads "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

The NKJV seems to be saying that salvation is a process but we know, from other passages dealing with salvation, that salvation is punctiliar in nature.

So, what is the problem? The problem is not with the Greek but with English.

In Greek the word σωζομενοις is a present, passive, participle. The first thing I learned in seminary in "bonehead Greek 101" class over 40 years ago was the non-temporal nature of Greek participles.

However, in English we indicate the participle by using the words "is being" or "are being." But that gives a false impression when read by an early 21st century English speaker that salvation is a process.

The NKJV employees the technically accurate way to translate the Greek participle, but due to the inexplicable vagaries of modern English, it gives a false impression.

The better (in my opinion) way to translate the word would be to treat it as a "state of being" verb. (And, to some extent the NKJV does that if you "read between the lines.") "(B)ut to us who are (in the state of) being saved . . ." etc.

The old KJV and the ASV (which I consider to be one of the most accurate English versions) both read "(B)ut unto us which are saved" treating it as a simple past tense which is technically inaccurate but does a better job of bringing the intent of the Greek into English.

So, yes, every version has its strong points and its weak points. That is unavoidable when translating from one language to another. It is part of the curse of sin (Babel). It is why, again in my opinion, that every pastor should have a good working knowledge of both Hebrew and Greek (and I don't mean listening to a tape from a diploma mill) if he is going to take the preaching and teaching of the word of God seriously.

However, on the other side of the coin, that exercise in the original languages of scripture rightly belongs in the study and not behind the pulpit or lectern. By constantly remarking that "the (English version of choice) is wrong here and should read" is contrary to good sense. All it does is destroy the confidence of the hearer in their English bibles. Statements should be in the sense of augmentation never contradiction. "What the phrase here means is something like "in the state of being saved." Never "the translators got it wrong here!" Never say from the pulpit or lectern that which will compromise the hearer's confidence in the word of God! :)


So you are saying that the NKJV departs from the essentials of the faith?
 

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
Being honest here kurecki is basically saying, due to his kjvo position, that the ESV (and other modern translations) purposefully weaken doctrine. This is what evangelist6589 responded to and why I believe he said 'this is not true'. This had nothing to do with the inherent problems of translating from one language to another. That is another issue altogether.
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Being honest here kurecki is basically saying, due to his kjvo position, that the ESV (and other modern translations) purposefully weaken doctrine. This is what evangelist6589 responded to and why I believe he said 'this is not true'. This had nothing to do with the inherent problems of translating from one language to another. That is another issue altogether.

Yes that is covered in the book "How to choose a translation for all its worth."
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Being honest here kurecki is basically saying, due to his kjvo position, that the ESV (and other modern translations) purposefully weaken doctrine. This is what evangelist6589 responded to and why I believe he said 'this is not true'. This had nothing to do with the inherent problems of translating from one language to another. That is another issue altogether.
Jordan Kurecki said: ↑
to say that different translations do not change or weaken essential doctrines is absolutely not true.
To which evangelist6589 replied
This is not true.
I then posted that it is true. And it is true of all translations. None are perfect. All have weaknesses and strengths in their translations. I pointed out how the NKJV, while technically correct, was less accurate than a more dynamic equivalence translation.

And somehow evangelist6589 turned that into
So you are saying that the NKJV departs from the essentials of the faith?
I didn't say anything near that. I pointed out that even non KJVOs who understand the complexities of translation know that Jordan, while wrong in his KJVOism, is correct in his assertion that different translations do weaken (or strengthen) essential doctrine. And I used, as an illustration of that fact, how the NKJV, in one spot, weakens the essential doctrine of salvation, but there is absolutely no way anyone could twist that into my saying the NKJV departs from the essentials of the faith! Good grief! It is my daily study bible! Only an idiot would use, for his daily study bible, one that he thought "departs from the essentials of the faith!"
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are "past," "present," and "future" aspects to salvation. If we consider 1 Corinthians 1:18, the best translations read "are being saved" rather than "are saved." Everyone "in Christ" has been saved, but we are still undergoing progressive sanctification as we strive to become more like Christ and serve Him. Thus we are being saved. And our future salvation, the resurrection in glorified bodies awaits!

If we look a few words earlier in the verse we see either those who are perishing or that perish. Most folks agree salvation remains possible for the lost right up until they physically die. The idea is that so long as a person views the gospel as foolishness, they are perishing.
 

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
TI then posted that it is true. And it is true of all translations. None are perfect. All have weaknesses and strengths in their translations. I pointed out how the NKJV, while technically correct, was less accurate than a more dynamic equivalence translation.


I didn't say anything near that. I pointed out that even non KJVOs who understand the complexities of translation know that Jordan, while wrong in his KJVOism, is correct in his assertion that different translations do weaken (or strengthen) essential doctrine. And I used, as an illustration of that fact, how the NKJV, in one spot, weakens the essential doctrine of salvation, but there is absolutely no way anyone could twist that into my saying the NKJV departs from the essentials of the faith! Good grief! It is my daily study bible! Only an idiot would use, for his daily study bible, one that he thought "departs from the essentials of the faith!"

Right, but Jordan isn't arguing that translations are weakened due to being translated as it would destroy his KJVOnlyism. This was more of a belligerency toward modern versions. IOW his argument wasn't from a scholarly stance, but from a KJVO stance that is against modern versions. He wouldn't apply this standard to the KJV, just other texts. That was the only point I was trying to make.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Right, but Jordan isn't arguing that translations are weakened due to being translated as it would destroy his KJVOnlyism. This was more of a belligerency toward modern versions. IOW his argument wasn't from a scholarly stance, but from a KJVO stance that is against modern versions. He wouldn't apply this standard to the KJV, just other texts. That was the only point I was trying to make.
Yes, I know. But that doesn't change the fact that he was right. Even righter than he thought because, unbeknownst to him, the KJV also weakens (and strengthens) some important doctrines. :)
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are "past," "present," and "future" aspects to salvation.
The story is told of the English Salvation Army girl at the end of the 19th Century who got on a train and in her carriage found the famous Bishop Westcott sitting in his full Episcopalian regalia, with his mitre beside him on the next seat. this was too good an opportunity for the Sally Army girl to miss, so she asked, "Excuse me, Bishop, but is you saved?"
He replied, "My dear, do you mean have I been saved, am I being saved or will I be saved?"
The reply of the sally Army girl is unknown. She probably went off and got a cup of coffee, but (on this occasion) Bishop Westcott was quite right. I have been saved because Christ has died for my sins on the cross and I have trusted in Him for my salvation. I am being saved as He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake; and I will be saved on that Last Day when I am found to be in Christ Jesus with my sins remembered no more.

So I am inclined to agree with the NKJV and ESV translation of 1 Corinthians 1:18, or at least, I see no reason to disagree with it.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
So I am inclined to agree with the NKJV and ESV translation of 1 Corinthians 1:18, or at least, I see no reason to disagree with it.
Except that has nothing at all to do with the context. :)

A simple comparison.

"There are, properly speaking, but two classes of men known where the Gospel is preached: απολλυμενοι, the unbelievers and gainsayers, who are perishing; and σοζομενοι, the obedient believers, who are in a state of salvation. To those who will continue in the first state, the preaching of salvation through the merit of a crucified Savior is folly. To those who believe this doctrine of Christ crucified is the power of God to their salvation; it is divinely efficacious to deliver them from all the power, guilt, and pollution of sin. (Adam Clarke)

:)
 

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
Except that has nothing at all to do with the context. :)

A simple comparison.

"There are, properly speaking, but two classes of men known where the Gospel is preached: απολλυμενοι, the unbelievers and gainsayers, who are perishing; and σοζομενοι, the obedient believers, who are in a state of salvation. To those who will continue in the first state, the preaching of salvation through the merit of a crucified Savior is folly. To those who believe this doctrine of Christ crucified is the power of God to their salvation; it is divinely efficacious to deliver them from all the power, guilt, and pollution of sin. (Adam Clarke)

:)
Yeah well I see the the Bishop Westcott as seeing himself 'in a state of salvation'. MM nailed it. :)
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do not miss the "those who will continue" in the lost state canard in the Adam Clarke snippet. The problem is some see the gospel as foolishness at one point in their life, but "come to their senses" and trust Christ at another point. Perish or perishing is not talking about a future condition (that perish) but their present state.
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Do not miss the "those who will continue" in the lost state canard in the Adam Clarke snippet.

Odd that you should say that, since on soteriological grounds you and Clarke are very alike. "Canard" is a a term best left for your continued attacks on the ESV.
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The verse (1 Cor. 1:18) has the Greek word translated "perishing" as present tense, not future tense. Thus, to claim the idea is that it applies to those who will continue to consider the gospel as foolishness is a canard, a falsehood, a fiction. And it this case the ESV has it right.

Pay no attention to those who characterize posters, rather than address the topic.
 

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
The verse (1 Cor. 1:18) has the Greek word translated "perishing" as present tense, not future tense. Thus, to claim the idea is that it applies to those who will continue to consider the gospel as foolishness is a canard, a falsehood, a fiction. And it this case the ESV has it right.

Pay no attention to those who characterize posters, rather than address the topic.
It applies to all who count it foolishness at any given moment in time. Nonetheless some have thought it foolishness at some point only to be regenerated and believe the Gospel at a latter point.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Spot on IT. (Other than "believe in God, then regenerated reversal slipped in.) :)
 
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