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Critique of the ESV

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Jordan Kurecki, Mar 10, 2016.

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  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    So you are saying that the NKJV departs from the essentials of the faith?
     
    #41 evangelist6589, Apr 14, 2016
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't think that is what he is saying.
     
    #42 JonC, Apr 14, 2016
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What? Which thumb did you suck that out of? Have you been taking reading comprehension lessons from revmwc? :rolleyes:
     
    #43 TCassidy, Apr 14, 2016
  4. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Being honest here kurecki is basically saying, due to his kjvo position, that the ESV (and other modern translations) purposefully weaken doctrine. This is what evangelist6589 responded to and why I believe he said 'this is not true'. This had nothing to do with the inherent problems of translating from one language to another. That is another issue altogether.
     
    #44 Internet Theologian, Apr 14, 2016
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  5. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Yes that is covered in the book "How to choose a translation for all its worth."
     
    #45 evangelist6589, Apr 15, 2016
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  6. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    It sounded like it to me, but glad I was mistaken.
     
    #46 evangelist6589, Apr 15, 2016
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  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    To which evangelist6589 replied
    I then posted that it is true. And it is true of all translations. None are perfect. All have weaknesses and strengths in their translations. I pointed out how the NKJV, while technically correct, was less accurate than a more dynamic equivalence translation.

    And somehow evangelist6589 turned that into
    I didn't say anything near that. I pointed out that even non KJVOs who understand the complexities of translation know that Jordan, while wrong in his KJVOism, is correct in his assertion that different translations do weaken (or strengthen) essential doctrine. And I used, as an illustration of that fact, how the NKJV, in one spot, weakens the essential doctrine of salvation, but there is absolutely no way anyone could twist that into my saying the NKJV departs from the essentials of the faith! Good grief! It is my daily study bible! Only an idiot would use, for his daily study bible, one that he thought "departs from the essentials of the faith!"
     
    #47 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2016
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    There are "past," "present," and "future" aspects to salvation. If we consider 1 Corinthians 1:18, the best translations read "are being saved" rather than "are saved." Everyone "in Christ" has been saved, but we are still undergoing progressive sanctification as we strive to become more like Christ and serve Him. Thus we are being saved. And our future salvation, the resurrection in glorified bodies awaits!

    If we look a few words earlier in the verse we see either those who are perishing or that perish. Most folks agree salvation remains possible for the lost right up until they physically die. The idea is that so long as a person views the gospel as foolishness, they are perishing.
     
    #48 Van, Apr 15, 2016
  9. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Right, but Jordan isn't arguing that translations are weakened due to being translated as it would destroy his KJVOnlyism. This was more of a belligerency toward modern versions. IOW his argument wasn't from a scholarly stance, but from a KJVO stance that is against modern versions. He wouldn't apply this standard to the KJV, just other texts. That was the only point I was trying to make.
     
    #49 Internet Theologian, Apr 15, 2016
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, I know. But that doesn't change the fact that he was right. Even righter than he thought because, unbeknownst to him, the KJV also weakens (and strengthens) some important doctrines. :)
     
    #50 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2016
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  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The story is told of the English Salvation Army girl at the end of the 19th Century who got on a train and in her carriage found the famous Bishop Westcott sitting in his full Episcopalian regalia, with his mitre beside him on the next seat. this was too good an opportunity for the Sally Army girl to miss, so she asked, "Excuse me, Bishop, but is you saved?"
    He replied, "My dear, do you mean have I been saved, am I being saved or will I be saved?"
    The reply of the sally Army girl is unknown. She probably went off and got a cup of coffee, but (on this occasion) Bishop Westcott was quite right. I have been saved because Christ has died for my sins on the cross and I have trusted in Him for my salvation. I am being saved as He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake; and I will be saved on that Last Day when I am found to be in Christ Jesus with my sins remembered no more.

    So I am inclined to agree with the NKJV and ESV translation of 1 Corinthians 1:18, or at least, I see no reason to disagree with it.
     
    #51 Martin Marprelate, Apr 15, 2016
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  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Except that has nothing at all to do with the context. :)

    A simple comparison.

    "There are, properly speaking, but two classes of men known where the Gospel is preached: απολλυμενοι, the unbelievers and gainsayers, who are perishing; and σοζομενοι, the obedient believers, who are in a state of salvation. To those who will continue in the first state, the preaching of salvation through the merit of a crucified Savior is folly. To those who believe this doctrine of Christ crucified is the power of God to their salvation; it is divinely efficacious to deliver them from all the power, guilt, and pollution of sin. (Adam Clarke)

    :)
     
    #52 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2016
  13. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah well I see the the Bishop Westcott as seeing himself 'in a state of salvation'. MM nailed it. :)
     
    #53 Internet Theologian, Apr 15, 2016
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That is why I stated earlier that the best way to express it in English is with a "state of being" verb. :)
     
    #54 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2016
  15. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I see that, and think you two are just talking past each other. :)
     
    #55 Internet Theologian, Apr 15, 2016
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Do not miss the "those who will continue" in the lost state canard in the Adam Clarke snippet. The problem is some see the gospel as foolishness at one point in their life, but "come to their senses" and trust Christ at another point. Perish or perishing is not talking about a future condition (that perish) but their present state.
     
    #56 Van, Apr 16, 2016
  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Odd that you should say that, since on soteriological grounds you and Clarke are very alike. "Canard" is a a term best left for your continued attacks on the ESV.
     
    #57 rsr, Apr 16, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2016
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The verse (1 Cor. 1:18) has the Greek word translated "perishing" as present tense, not future tense. Thus, to claim the idea is that it applies to those who will continue to consider the gospel as foolishness is a canard, a falsehood, a fiction. And it this case the ESV has it right.

    Pay no attention to those who characterize posters, rather than address the topic.
     
    #58 Van, Apr 18, 2016
  19. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    It applies to all who count it foolishness at any given moment in time. Nonetheless some have thought it foolishness at some point only to be regenerated and believe the Gospel at a latter point.
     
    #59 Internet Theologian, Apr 18, 2016
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Spot on IT. (Other than "believe in God, then regenerated reversal slipped in.) :)
     
    #60 Van, Apr 19, 2016
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