Crucifixion Happened ON Wednesday

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu'
"However, I agree that nobody knows the exact schedule of what happened during the Last Week of the Lord. The above is the most plausible understanding, though."

GE

I, on the other hand, believe it was and is the will of God we as Christian believers should know and understand these things - and not revert to despondency the moment our explanations fail the test of Scripture. God did not for nothing give us many and direct and clear statements, observations and implications as to time and day and date of the last week of Jesus' life -- more than on anything else in the Scriptures. They are abundant and fully convicting. I know for sure I believe in the Messiah who made true every Word from the Spirit of God in the Holy Scriptures and from the pure lips of our Master. Old and New Covenants - Law and Grace, "kiss each other" in holy embrace!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu,
"3 nights( Thursday, Friday, Saturday) and 3 days, but was resurrected still on the third day."

The 3 nights contained within Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, reckoned the Bible-way the Fifth, the Sixth and the Seventh Day (of the week), WILL, give you "3 days" INCLUDING the Resurrection, "still on the third day" of THESE three, 'days'. BUT YOU MUST COME OUT ON SUNDAY BY HOOK OR BY CROOK because you WILL not surrender!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I didn't put the stars there!

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu,
"3 nights( Thursday, Friday, Saturday) and 3 days, but was resurrected still on the third day."

The 3 nights contained within Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, reckoned the Bible-way the Fifth, the Sixth and the Seventh Day (of the week), WILL, give you "3 days" INCLUDING the Resurrection, "still on the third day" of THESE three, 'days'. BUT YOU MUST COME OUT ON SUNDAY BY HOOK OR BY CROOK because you WILL not surrender!

I am busy at the moment, so I cannot comment fully on the others.

You are quite Sabbath-obssessed before you blame me to be stubborn!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When 'possessed', one is possessed by a deamon or by Truth.

 

[EdSutton]

Deciding to be nice, for now.

Ed

 

[Eliyahu]

Deciding to be nice, for now.

Ed

The farmer's approach was as good as that of the tinker John Bunyan was with his Pilgrim Progress, I notice.

 

[Eliyahu]

Just for your information,

Messianic Jews believe mostly that Crucifixion took place on Wednesday, because of the reasons different from what GE is claiming now.

Their belief is this:

If the Crucifixion occurred on Thursday ( Friday cannot be at all), there would have been no time to purchase the perfumes at all.

In the evening of Thursday, the stores would have been closed already.

On Friday and Saturday, the stores were closed because they were Sabbaths.

The only chance is the Saturday Evening, for them to buy the perfumes, which may not be unlikely.

But I believe, this can be a secondary issue as they could have reserved some perfumes in stock at some of the houses, or they could have bought it on Saturday evening.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ag ja ....

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu
Messianic Jews believe mostly that Crucifixion took place on Wednesday, because of the reasons different from what GE is claiming now.

Their belief is this:
If the Crucifixion occurred on Thursday ( Friday cannot be at all), there would have been no time to purchase the perfumes at all.

GE
Who contends ‘perfumes were purchased’ on Thursday? – Not GE, I beg your pardon! Who maintains a Thursday-resurrection would require ‘perfumes to be purchased’ on Thursday? Not GE, I beg your pardon!

Why would a Thursday-resurrection have required ‘time’ to ‘purchase perfumes’? The Crucifixion on Thursday does not require ‘time to purchase perfumes’ on that day. In fact, the chronicles show its impossibility – as I have shown more than once.


Eliyahu

In the evening of Thursday, the stores would have been closed already.

GE
Not at all. After the meal Judas went out to purchase things for the Feast-Sabbath --- or so the disciples thought. They presupposed ‘the stores’ open that time of night. See also other indications considered, books 1-1 and 1-2, e.g., Par.5.2.2.2 ... http://www.biblestudents.co.za.

Being the Passover-sabbath that followed the day of Crucifixion meant only menial works and profit-making were forbidden, while specific works of ‘worship’ and ‘service’, were obligatory. See the Exodus story as it unfolded in history and later legislation.

Eliyahu
On Friday and Saturday, the stores were closed because they were Sabbaths.

GE
Then you had three consecutive ‘sabbaths’ – impossible – in any ‘Passover-Season’!

Eliyahu
The only chance is the Saturday Evening, for them to buy the perfumes, which may not be unlikely.

GE
Thursday, crucifixion – no purchases being Nisan 14 “Preparation of the Passover”, “when they had to slaughter the Passover”;

Friday, Nisan 15 since Thursday after sunset: Interment. Purchases for holy ‘service’ were mandatory, so that, One, Joseph bought clean linen, and Nicodemus “brought there, about hundred pounds of mirre”, and, Two, so that after the grave was closed, “the women went home, and prepared (not ‘bought’) spices” they at that hour “in time before the Sabbath would begin”, already have had or obtained, with the view of coming back to the grave to embalm the body in the grave.

Saturday evening, “when the Sabbath had gone through” (Mk16:1), Salome joined the Marys, so that they went “to buy spices” for her also to salve the body in the grave “according as the custom of the Jews to bury was”.

The only day on which spices and ointments could not be bought, was on the weekly Sabbath, and we see the care taken before and after the Sabbath not to buy spices on it. “The women rested the Sabbath as the Law says.” Lk23:54-56

The totality of your arguments, Eliyahu, against Crucifixion on Thursday and Resurrection on Sabbath amounted to less than nothing.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

See below, at last!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Month……………………….Date…………..weeks…………days

Nisan…………………………16…………………………………….1
………………………………….23………………1……………………8
………………………………….30……………….2………………….15
Zif……………………………….7……………….3………………….22
…………………………………..14………………4………………….29
…………………………………..21………………5………………….36
…………………………………..28……………….6…………………43
Sivan………………………….5…………………7…………………50
Shavuot……………………Pentecost

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

(7) The date of the fifteenth of the Second Month is given (Ex16:1-3), so that 5 Sivan had become the traditional date of Shavuot to this day!

Month……………………….Date…………..weeks…………days

Nisan…………………………16……………….…………….……….1
……………………….…………23………….……1……………………8
……………………….…………30……………….2………………….15
Zif…….……………………….…7……….……..3………………….22
………………………….………14…….…………4………………….29
……………………….…………21……….………5……….…………36
…………………….……………28……………….6…………….……43
Sivan………………………..…5…………….…7…………….……50
……………………………..Shavuot……………………Pentecost

Given: Second Month 15, Ex16:1-3. “Six days gather manna; Seventh Day is the Sabbath” – Therefore 21 st Zif is Sabbath (weekly).

Count back, and Nisan 14 was on a Thursday; Nisan 15 would be Friday, and Nisan 16 would be Sabbath. So would Sivan 5!

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu
On Friday and Saturday, the stores were closed because they were Sabbaths.

GE
Then you had three consecutive ‘sabbaths’ – impossible – in any ‘Passover-Season’!

You must be misunderstanding.

Abib 14 - Thursday - Jesus died around 15:30

Abib 14 - Thursday - Jesus was buried before 18:00

Abib 15- Thursday Evening - Abib 15 started after 18:30 Thursday - Passover Sabbath ( High Sabbath) has come.

Abib 15 - Friday Morning and Daytime - Passover Sabbath

Abib 16 - from Friday Evening thru Saturday morning and daytime until 18:30 - Regular Sabbath

Abib 17 - Evening after Saturday 18:30 - Firstday of the Week, Day of Firstfruits, Perfumes may have been prepared.


Abib 17 - Morning time of Sunday, Abib 17.
the High Priest was waving the firstfruits, Jesus the True Firstfruit was waved by God, from among the dead.


I prefer Abib to Nisan because Nisan was the Babylonian name of Abib.

Abib 8 ( John 12:1) must be Friday and the evening of Abib 8 was Sabbath.
Abib 9 Saturday Sabbath
Abib 10 Sunday
Abib 11 Monday
Abib 12 Tuesday
Abib 13 Wednesday
Abib 14 Thursday - Jesus was crucified in the morning ( 09:00)
Jesus died around 15:00-15:30
Joseph got the permission from Pilate 17:00
Jesus was buried before 18:00
Sabbath has come at 18:30 - Abib 15.


How could you find I was talking about 3 Sabbath days, other than Abib 15 and 16?
Sabbath is Sabbath even if it is the High Sabbath or Passover Sabbath and no one can sell or buy on that day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE
Dear Eliyahu, Here is your Post 148 on this thread, I Quote you,

“Just for your information, Eliyahuic Jews believe mostly that Crucifixion took place on Wednesday, because of the reasons different from what GE is claiming now.
Their belief is this:
If the Crucifixion occurred on Thursday ( Friday cannot be at all), there would have been no time to purchase the perfumes at all. ...”

GE
You now have posted belief in a Thursday Resurrection. Aren’t you ‘Messianic’? I have thought you are. My apologies if I was wrong! Then I have to review my negations of your view, as follows,

First, we MUST decide what you mean with ‘evening’.
I take ‘evening’ of a day, for its beginning, that is, for the night just after sunset until dark (no more reflected sunshine). I believe this is the Gospels’ meaning with ‘opsias’ without exception. I shall proceed understanding ‘evening’ for this first part of a day-cycle from sunset to sunset.

Next,
“Abib 14 - Thursday - Jesus died around 15:30” --- Fine, only it says in so many words, “the ninth hour”, which is, 3:00pm; to be exact.

“Abib 14 - Thursday - Jesus was buried before 18:00”. --- That means, on the same day of Thursday and before sunset and before the Sixth Day (Friday) had begun (with ‘evening’).

This is of course one of the major points of difference between our respective viewpoints. In objection against your view, I present Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Lk23:48 and Jn19:31/38 (unspoilt!). In the light of the unequivocal testimony of all four Gospels, Jesus was not taken off the cross ‘before sunset’, nor even shortly “after evening had come”, but quite some time AFTER. I have presented some arguments in favour of this conclusion in this thread.

The implication of it is Jesus was buried on the day after ‘Crucifixion Day’ (Abib 14) – namely on ‘Interment Day’ (Abib 15), Friday. (The Greek Orthodox Church that follows the ‘quarto-decimen reckoning’ of ‘Easter’, celebrate Crucifixion Day on Thursday, ‘Interment Day’ on Friday, and ‘Resurrection Day’ on Saturday if Abib 14 falls on a Thursday.) [And have you noticed how many times that happens? Quite disproportionately more times on Thursday than on any other day of the week!]

I have also in this thread drawn attention to this facet of Passover Feast.

Eliyahu
“Abib 15- Thursday Evening - Abib 15 started after 18:30 Thursday - Passover Sabbath ( High Sabbath) has come.
Abib 15 - Friday Morning and Daytime - Passover Sabbath
Abib 16 - from Friday Evening thru Saturday morning and daytime until 18:30 - Regular Sabbath”.

GE
Maybe a minor point, but why again “18:30” and not exactly 6pm? Equinox in Springtime, sunset will mean for the Jew the 12th hour, in our language, 6pm and the start of the new day.

Otherwise I fully agree on every word, here.

Eliyahu
“Abib 17 - Evening after Saturday 18:30 - Firstday of the Week, Day of Firstfruits, Perfumes may have been prepared.
Abib 17 - Morning time of Sunday, Abib 17.
the High Priest was waving the firstfruits, Jesus the True Firstfruit was waved by God, from among the dead.”



GE
Say we read Lv23:10b-11, 15-16,
“Ye shall reap the harvest ... then ye shall bring a sheaf of first fruits of your harvest to the priest to be accepted (by the LORD) for you: On the second day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. ... And ye shall count unto you from the second day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; Seven (weeks of) Sabbaths shall be complete even unto two days after the seventh sabbath; ye shall number fifty one days … and ye shall bring ... two loaves ...”, would you be happy?

Would you be happy if we read Abib 17 in 2Chron26, instead of “Abib 16”?

How do you count to the count of “the third day” from Thursday with Thursday day one and Abib 14? Will you not go on to count like this, Friday day two and Abib 15, Saturday day three and Abib 16?

About “Perfumes may have been prepared” I have said enough. You don’t want to build your entire argument on the alleged prohibition of sales on Nisan 15?

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear GE,

Please don't misunderstand that I claimed Wednesday crucifixion which is maintained by many Messianic Jews. I am not a Messianic Jew.
I already explained the most plausible schedule would have been:
Crucifixion on Abib 14, Thursday, in the morning around 09:00
Jesus died around 15:30 on Thursday, Abib 14, and was buried before 18:00 on the same day, Thursday.
Then we will have 3 nights and 3 days but still the resurrection on the third day, Sunday morning.


As for 18:30 for dividing the days, I have the followings:

1. At nineth hour Jesus said Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani
This means that Jesus said so at 15:00.
Thereafter some people brought the vinegar ( Mt 27:48)
Receiving the vinegar he said " It is finished ( Tetelestai) " ( John 19:30)
Jesus cried again in loud voice ( Mt 27:50) which may be this " Father into thy hands I commend my spirit" Luke 23:46 ( cried with a loud voice).

In other words, after 15:00, Jesus said 3 Words - Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani, Telelestai - Pater, Eis keiras sou parathesomai to pneuma mou, plus some people said Let's see Elijah come and same him, others ran to fetch the vinegar and Jesus received it and just tasted it ( didn't drink), then spoke Tetelestai- Pater, eis ..., gave up the spirit.

I don't think, those all took place in one minute, nor in 3 minute, nor in 5 minutes, but reasonably, 15- 30 minutes, most likely almost in 30 minutes.

So, in my schedule Jesus died at around 15:30.

2. As for the evening time, Day of the Unleavened Bread is the 15th Abib, the Full moon day, after the Spring Equinox.
If it was on the Spring Equinox, it could have been 18:00
However, Day of ULB was not the exact Spring Equinox but a few days after it. It cannot be later than 30 days from the Equinox, but as an average, as we experience the Day of Resurrection ( Easter) thesedays, it could have been about 15 days from the Equinox. Everyday, the day time is getting longer by 4 minutes after Equinox, and the evening is delayed by 2 minutes, Sun rise gets earlier by 2 minutes. Therefore as an average, it could be around 30 minutes later than 18:00, then we reach 18:30. Depending on the latitude it might have been earlier than that like 18:15-18:30

The others are small issues, and you may imagine as you wish.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu, thank you very much for this very interesting post. I have never thought of the times so with insight, and I hearily accept everything you have explained so well!

Unfortunately though, I deem this of less importance than 'the rest' -- which again to me matters more, and surely is based on physical facts of history just as much as these finer detail on the hours of event which you have given.

What is most intriguing to me is how you arrive - just like I do - on Saturday "the third day according to the Scriptures", Nisan 16, YET ignore this DEMAND of Scriptures, only because you attach so much weight to human commandments of men regarding the 'shalls' and 'shall not' of byuing and such stuff on a ceremonial sabbath -- in order to force your way PAST "the third day", "ON" the Sunday?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu,
“Joseph got the permission from Pilate 17:00”

GE
You leave one and half hour for everything Joseph, Nicodemus and the two Marys did, before the ‘Passover-sabbath’ would have begun at 6:30pm., ignoring the clear statements found in Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Jn19:31/38, and Lk23:48/52 which you had made the rule of yourself as indicators of the ending and beginning between days.

With this your ending to Joseph’s actions, you make the time of his rolling the stone into the closure to the grave on Thursday, 6:30pm, sunset, at the moment of the start of the Sixth Day (Friday) – while it says literally “daylight having turned towards the Sabbath” (whichever ‘sabbath’ for argument’s sake). The actual words leave much time left before the ‘sabbath’ would have started. You also with your very late time of day leave the women no time after the burial to leave for home in order to “prepare spices” before the ensuing Passover-sabbath would have started. So besides the literal linguistic and ‘religious’ problems you must face (like when the day starts and ends), you also are confronted with all sorts of practical impossibilities. And all these ‘imaginations’ of yours, just because you insist spices could not be bought on a ceremonial sabbath!?

You forget Nisan 15 was THE day the Israelites “with all might”, had to leave out of Egypt. No labour was spared on Nisan 15! (as I have shown before) and that they were commanded to take their dough on their shoulders with, as well as the remains of the Passover-lamb, to bury it that very same day!

Now notice the semblance between this earliest application of Dt23:21 long before it got written, with the life by the blood represented was put to the trees in the doors of the Israelites’ dwellings in cursed Egypt, and how they had not to stay in Egypt “all that night”, but before the light of morning, had to leave cursed Egypt, to “in that same day, bury” the remains – exactly as the examples where we find this Commandment applied elsewhere in Scripture, e.g., Josua9:29f.

Also see the similarities in the Passovers of Exodus and Josua, chapter 5. After at least 40 years after the first, the Passover was again observed, “And the children of Israel kept (i.e., killed) the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month (Abib) ... and they ate of the old corn of the land on the day after the Passover (on Abib 15), unleavened cakes, the same day. And the manna ceased on the following day – the day after they had eaten of the old corn of the land, it ceased.” Israel had just entered the land of the heathen. On one day only of the 7 days of ULB (Abib 15), they ate of the old corn. “But they (from "the following day " on) ate of the fruit of Canaan all year...”, and the assumption must be, they ate of the NEW corn of the harvest ever thereafter; They would not eat ‘old corn’ after Abib 15 again! New Life was Promised and the Promise was made true ... “on the day after they had eaten of the old, corn”, that is, they ate of the NEW, ON, Abib 16! And the NEW would be symbolic of the New Life of which the First Sheaf would be the type ever after.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thesis
“Until Friday 15:30 - the second day,
Until Saturday 15:30 - the third day,
Sunday morning - ca. 04:30 - Resurrection - 85 hours after death on the fourth day.(Not on the third day)
Until Sunday 15:30 - the fourth day

In the Greek New Testament, sometimes it says τη τριτη ημερα (the third day : 1Cor 15:4) too. Therefore the only way to satisfy both requirements - 3 days and 3 nights but still on the third day - is to find 3 nights before the Sunday morning, but should not be earlier than 72 hours.”

Antithesis
This now explains how you people came from Thursday to end up on Sunday! Its not new to me though; I have answered this subtlety in ‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace’, so long ago, I scarcely recognised it in this conversation.

You count three day-light parts, Thursday-day, Friday-day, Saturday-day; Then you count three night-parts – Thursday-night, Friday-night, Saturday-night! Heh! “Three days and three nights” Mt12:40!

Hold it! It destroys ALL the other declarations of the Scriptures about “THE, THIRD, day”. You got 6 ‘day-PARTS’, but not 3 proper ‘DAYS’! You butchered four proper days into eight parts and again botched up six of them as your hideaway from truth.

The “three days and three nights” of Matthew and Jonah, were three total days in total. It means the first principle of the Bible-reckoning of a day is obeyed, in that any part of a day represents that whole day, while also the very words, “three days and three nights” or “the third day”.
Every of the “three days” of these Scriptures is constituted of and represented by a night-part AND its very OWN, night-part.

How many times have you simply evaded the fact you all claimed, that ‘a day’ begins with its evening? each time you have smuggled in and paraded your imposing gloss of four days’ leftovers as ‘the’ “three days and three nights” of the Word of God! With this trick you tried to strip God’s Sabbath Day of its robe-of-honour to wrap your idol Sunday in!

Thursday began with Wednesday-night; Friday with Thursday-night, and Saturday, “the third day”, with Friday-night. And Saturday which was the Seventh Day Sabbath, ended literally – “with/in (its) after-noon”: ‘epiphohskousehi’, Mt28:1. There is no other way “three days and three nights” can be found WITHIN and OF the only ‘three days’ Christ said that He would have been “in the heart of the earth” – retrospectively. “In three days I shall rebuild this Temple”, and “on the third day, FINISH”. Not on the fourth day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE
Quoting, “...Day of First Fruits are always the First day of the Week. ( Lev 23:11-12), it was the next day after the Sabbath” (Emphasis GE)

Lv23:11, 15-16, “Ye shall bring a sheaf ... the priest shall wave the sheaf ... on the day after the sabbath. ... Ye shall count from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf. ... Even unto the day after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days.”

Even one word more will be superfluous.