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CSB review
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
The truth has stung you Van. Facts are my speciality. ;-)Next you misrepresent my position, typical behavior of those without facts on their side.
From Fee &Strauss: (pages 54,55)
"Formal equivalent versions tend to seek one-to-one correspondence, and if the translation works --even awkwardly ---then that translation is retained. The problem is that this results in unnatural English. For example, the Hebrew verb nathan usually means 'give.' Yet that word appears in many collocations that are impossible to translate literally into English. Other collocations translate only awkwardly." Then some examples are given in which the NKJV uses a more formal equivalent. I will cite the NKJV wording and also give the LEB wording.
Gen. 43:14 : Give you mercy/ LEB : grant you compassion
Deut. 23:14 : Give your enemies over to you/ LEB : hand your enemies over to you
Isaiah 3:4 : Give children to be their princes/ LEB : make boys to be their princes
Isaiah 55:4 : Give him as a witness/ LEB : made him a witness
Mic. 7:20 : Give truth to Jacob/ LEB : show faithfulness to Jacob
__________________________________________________________________________
So Van, please tell me, is the LEB less accurate in these renderings? Is the NKJV better?
"Formal equivalent versions tend to seek one-to-one correspondence, and if the translation works --even awkwardly ---then that translation is retained. The problem is that this results in unnatural English. For example, the Hebrew verb nathan usually means 'give.' Yet that word appears in many collocations that are impossible to translate literally into English. Other collocations translate only awkwardly." Then some examples are given in which the NKJV uses a more formal equivalent. I will cite the NKJV wording and also give the LEB wording.
Gen. 43:14 : Give you mercy/ LEB : grant you compassion
Deut. 23:14 : Give your enemies over to you/ LEB : hand your enemies over to you
Isaiah 3:4 : Give children to be their princes/ LEB : make boys to be their princes
Isaiah 55:4 : Give him as a witness/ LEB : made him a witness
Mic. 7:20 : Give truth to Jacob/ LEB : show faithfulness to Jacob
__________________________________________________________________________
So Van, please tell me, is the LEB less accurate in these renderings? Is the NKJV better?
Thanks, somehow I expected your view to totally disagree with the Mr. Rippon2 view.The KJV, followed by the NASB , NKJV. The older ASV & RSV would be closer still.
LOL Rippon2, you consistently demonstrate disregard for truth. Your speciality is misrepresentation by editing the statements of others.The truth has stung you Van. Facts are my speciality. ;-)
From Fee &Strauss: (pages 54,55)
"Formal equivalent versions tend to seek one-to-one correspondence, and if the translation works --even awkwardly ---then that translation is retained. The problem is that this results in unnatural English. For example, the Hebrew verb nathan usually means 'give.' Yet that word appears in many collocations that are impossible to translate literally into English. Other collocations translate only awkwardly." Then some examples are given in which the NKJV uses a more formal equivalent. I will cite the NKJV wording and also give the LEB wording.
Gen. 43:14 : Give you mercy/ LEB : grant you compassion
Deut. 23:14 : Give your enemies over to you/ LEB : hand your enemies over to you
Isaiah 3:4 : Give children to be their princes/ LEB : make boys to be their princes
Isaiah 55:4 : Give him as a witness/ LEB : made him a witness
Mic. 7:20 : Give truth to Jacob/ LEB : show faithfulness to Jacob
__________________________________________________________________________
So Van, please tell me, is the LEB less accurate in these renderings? Is the NKJV better?
On and on the copy and paster fills threads with non-germane nonsense.
Mr. Rippon has no idea of the issue, consistency in translating word and phrase meanings.
Based on the "facts" supplied above, how many times does the NKJV translate "Nathan" as grant? Zero, right.
But in truth, the NKJV uses "grant" about 24 times. Surprised. The NIV? 16 times. Go figure.
How about "give?" NKJV 437 times. The NIV? 390 times.
Does the NKJV translate H5414 as grant? Yes
Does the NKJV translate H5414 as hand? Yes (246 times!!)
Does the NKJV translate H5414 as make? Yes (123 times)
Does the NKJV translate H5414 as made? Yes (111 times)
Does the NKJV translate H5414 as show? Yes (12 times)
The whole post #43 misrepresents truth to muddy the waters.
Well, well, well. You're lying again I see Mr. Van man.LOL Rippon2, you consistently demonstrate disregard for truth. Your speciality is misrepresentation by editing the statements of others.
You have a habit of inverting the meaning of words Van. Things that are factual you view as nonsense.On and on the copy and paster fills threads with non-germane nonsense.
I have dealt with you on this very same subject many times Van. Don't make things up.Mr. Rippon has no idea of the issue, consistency in translating word and phrase meanings.
I just gave five examples. I was not being comprehensive. My question still stands. Is the LEB less faithful than the NKJV in those five instances, or not?Based on the "facts" supplied above, how many times does the NKJV translate "Nathan" as grant? Zero, right.
You gave a lot of examples in which the NKJV is not employing word-for-word consistency as you have gone on and on about for years on the BB. If the NKJV does not translate as you wish --is indeed the LEB even worse in that regard?
You can't win Van. As I have said repeatedly on the BB --it's more about contextual meanings --not lexical ones.
He has dementia at 86 years of age. I doubt he is on that payroll since he's not with CBT any longer. The NASB team is on the payroll though.Gordon Fee seems to be on the payroll of Zondervan.
He has dementia at 86 years of age. I doubt he is on that payroll since he's not with CBT any longer. The NASB team is on the payroll though.
But he once, in the past was. He was very biased towards his employer. He put the New American Standard/New King James Version down, yet exalted the jerusalem/new jerusalem bible, new english/revised english bible. He only criticized competition with the NIV. The others were not so he praised them.
s. Is the LEB less faithful than the NKJV in those five instances, or not?
.
Still Mr Rippon2 continues to think his selective edit is worth discussion. Amazing.
Overall the NIV is less consistent that the NASB, NKJV, and just about everybody else other than the NLT. Go figure
2. Consistency Rate of Word Choices
Ideally, each word (or more precisely each distinctive sense of a word) in the source text corresponds to a unique word in the target text, and each target word corresponds to a unique source word. While this is impossible in actual practice,as exact lexical equivalence between languages is rare, the degree to which the target text approximates this isomorphism is an indication of how consistent the translation is across the whole Bible and how much the translators have tried to express the original text literally.This is done by aggregating all the correspondences found in the reverse interlinear data and calculating the overall ratio of one-to-one mapping.
Consistency Rate of Word Choices Version Score
KJV 73.48%
NASB 70.70%
NKJV 69.52%
ESV 66.89%
NRSV 62.88%
CSB 59.25%
NET 57.06%
NIV 54.19%
NLT 47.25
With this analysis we see the scatter gun approach where consistency is increasingly given lip service, but willy nilly choices are increasingly on display. Overall the NIV is less consistent that the NASB, NKJV, and just about everybody else other than the NLT. Go figure
Ideally, each word (or more precisely each distinctive sense of a word) in the source text corresponds to a unique word in the target text, and each target word corresponds to a unique source word. While this is impossible in actual practice,as exact lexical equivalence between languages is rare, the degree to which the target text approximates this isomorphism is an indication of how consistent the translation is across the whole Bible and how much the translators have tried to express the original text literally.This is done by aggregating all the correspondences found in the reverse interlinear data and calculating the overall ratio of one-to-one mapping.
Consistency Rate of Word Choices Version Score
KJV 73.48%
NASB 70.70%
NKJV 69.52%
ESV 66.89%
NRSV 62.88%
CSB 59.25%
NET 57.06%
NIV 54.19%
NLT 47.25
With this analysis we see the scatter gun approach where consistency is increasingly given lip service, but willy nilly choices are increasingly on display. Overall the NIV is less consistent that the NASB, NKJV, and just about everybody else other than the NLT. Go figure
You mean he thought some renderings in those other versions were better in his estimation. It doesn't mean he put them down entirely. He was dealing with certain passages. Before he was an NIV translator he critiqued it negatively with respect to certain passages.But he once, in the past was. He was very biased towards his employer. He put the New American Standard/New King James Version down, yet exalted the jerusalem/new jerusalem bible, new english/revised english bible. He only criticized competition with the NIV. The others were not so he praised them.
You really need to read some Bible commentaries. It's not uncommon for a commentator to list up to a dozen different translations in which various versions are praised when it comes to the renderings of particular passages and negatively when it comes to others.
You still have not answered my question. Go sit and ponder. Then, after you have used what's left of your gray matter, give me a reasonable answer.Still Mr Rippon2 continues to think his selective edit is worth discussion. Amazing.
Overall the NIV is less consistent that the NASB, NKJV, and just about everybody else other than the NLT. Go figure
Why would anyone answer your nonsense. The NIV has once again been shown to be a willy nilly translation.You still have not answered my question. Go sit and ponder. Then, after you have used what's left of your gray matter, give me a reasonable answer.
No need for pathetic change the subject questions.
Translations are not people. They can't be called "everybody." ;-)Overall the NIV is less consistent that the NASB, NKJV, and just about everybody else other than the NLT. Go figure
I wonder how inconsistent the LEB would be in the opinion of Mr. Wu.
Where Van comes from the term "willy nilly" is a term of high prominence.The NIV has once again been shown to be a willy nilly translation.
No pity is needed. But don't be cowardly. Just answer my question. Did the cat get your tongue?No need for pathetic change the subject questions.
On and on Mr. Rippon2 floods the thread with non-germane posts, trying to hide the truth the NIV has once again been shown to be a willy nilly translation.Translations are not people. They can't be called "everybody." ;-)
I wonder how inconsistent the LEB would be in the opinion of Mr. Wu.
"The scores may be different when a sense-based evaluation system is used."2. Consistency Rate of Word Choices
Ideally, each word (or more precisely each distinctive sense of a word) in the source text corresponds to a unique word in the target text, and each target word corresponds to a unique source word. While this is impossible in actual practice,as exact lexical equivalence between languages is rare,
Consistency Rate of Word Choices Version Score