Cultural Standards

[John of Japan]

I would wear a suit...well...probably a sports coat...to teach an older group of adults (I did, actually), to preach at a a small church (older members may get offended otherwise, and a suit probably wouldn't come off as pretentious like ot would if I were 30 years younger) and to a wedding or funeral if I was involved in the service.

I would wear a nice pair of pants or jeans and a nice shirt to attend church, a wedding, a funeral, etc. unless it was requested otherwise.

I wear t-shirts around the house and sometimes fishing. I wear shorts and t-shirts on hot days to work (because we have to wear them under our PPE on hot days and always when wearing a respirator).

I would wear a t-shirt to play golf as more allow t-shirts, but a t-shirt with a collar (Hanes makes them) on courses that require collared shirts.

I would wear jeans and a button up shirt to meet the President.

I'd probably wear a button up shirt to bowl, but maybe a t-shirt.

At a job interview I dress one step up from the work attire.

So you do still wear a suit sometimes. Interesting.

 

[John of Japan]

Then there is this music group, great fun if you like the 1960s. All in suits, as it happens.

 

[JonC]

So you do still wear a suit sometimes. Interesting.

No, I don't. But I am not anti-suit, either. When teaching an older adults class I did. But this was because this was an older church (not older population but one that has been here for a long time). The class was a senior class. The church I now attend is a church start up in the community. I would not wear a suit to preach or teach at this one. The church has grown to a little over 60 people, but most are under 50 years old (at 56 I am probably the oldest).

But I did wear a suit when conducting DCSA (Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency) investigations. The reason was that the person being investigated not be too comfortable during the interview.

 

[JonC]

Then there is this music group, great fun if you like the 1960s. All in suits, as it happens.

I wonder how many secular pop groups over the past three decades wear a suit. Culture has changed.

 

[John of Japan]

No, I don't.

But you said you did.

 

[John of Japan]

I wonder how many secular pop groups over the past three decades wear a suit. Culture has changed.

But suits/sport coats still mean something, or lawyers, federal agents, preachers, etc., would not still wear them.

 

[John of Japan]

I wonder how many secular pop groups over the past three decades wear a suit. Culture has changed.

I wonder how many secular pop groups over the last three decades are worth hearing. I've tried listening to modern pop music and abandoned it many times. Musically they are almost all awful. The thing about the early pop music is that it was musically good, and was sung correctly--diaphragm, not choking the mike, etc. (My mom taught me some of the pop from her youth in the 1930s-1940s: "I'd Rather Have a Paper Doll" and the like. And I am well versed on 60s pops. Was asked once to play bass in a group; did play rhythm in "Up With People." And "rap" is not music at all, as my Greek scholar friend said when we visited him last week. He has an awesome CD collection you would not believe: classical, 60's pop, etc. etc.

 

[JonC]

But you said you did.

I did. But I don't now.

I have several sports coats, I just have not worn them in years.

If I were to teach an older class (60 years old+) at another church I would probably wear a coat.

Why? Same reason I wouldn't if I taught at the church I am now attending. I would not want my clothes (whether a suit or lack thereof) be a distraction or obstacle.

But suits/sport coats still mean something, or lawyers, federal agents, preachers, etc., would not still wear them.

To some people, yes. But the something they mean is not the same something.

In some corporate groups it means representing a company and the company standards.
To some it means demanding respect.
To others it means giving respect.

At one time it was just decent attire (blue jeans were only for certain work, not even to be worn to the grocery store, not to be worn to school).

I wonder how many secular pop groups over the last three decades are worth hearing. I've tried listening to modern pop music and abandoned it many times. Musically they are almost all awful. The thing about the early pop music is that it was musically good, and was sung correctly--diaphragm, not choking the mike, etc. (My mom taught me some of the pop from her youth in the 1930s-1940s: "I'd Rather Have a Paper Doll" and the like. And I am well versed on 60s pops. Was asked once to play bass in a group; did play rhythm in "Up With People." And "rap" is not music at all, as my Greek scholar friend said when we visited him last week. He has an awesome CD collection you would not believe: classical, 60's pop, etc. etc.

There are several worth listening to, but pop isn't my favorite.

People did not all of a sudden stop being able to sing. Culture changed.
I disagree about rap. At one time it was more spoken word, but now it has all of the elements that make it music. But it is music that I do not enjoy.

Each generation thinks that theirs was the last generation with good music. I am no different. I like some new music, but as a whole think good music ended with my youth.

 

[Servant of Jehovah]

Ultimately my point is that there are two sides to these traditions. There is often a legitimate reason for holding a custom, but there is also a legitimate counter position.

This is actually a cultural standard in places (men should not expose their elbows or knees in public as this is disrespectful). So a congregation may hold this view, and out of respect never expose their knees or elbows. I believe this is absolutely appropriate for that group of people. But I believe imposing this as a standard of respect onto other people is problematic (thinking that a man wearing a short sleeved shirt to church is disrespecting God would be a false assumption and a projection of social norms onto another culture).

It depends what you mean by these. Because traditions (e.g., wearing a suit to church) cannot be enforced, and I doubt that Paul or Peter or any other member of the early church was wearing a suit and tie.

However, there is a certain aspect of what we wear that must conform to Scriptural standards. For example, the Bible defines "nakedness" as including the loins and thighs. Therefore, if people (male or female) are wearing clothing that don't cover that area, they are naked in God's eyes, and I don't believe that God would be pleased for His children to worship Him in such a disrespectful manner.

I think that there's two ditches. One that many fall into is judging others for wearing something they personally wouldn't wear, even though it still falls in line with biblical standards. The other is that clothing doesn't matter at all, which is also wrong, else God would not have explicitly commanded modest clothing be worn (1 Timothy 2:9).

Now, I will put this out here: I know for a fact that what I believe the Bible teaches about modesty is not popular, but nonetheless I believe it to be so from clear statements of Scripture.

 

[John of Japan]

There are several worth listening to, but pop isn't my favorite.

People did not all of a sudden stop being able to sing. Culture changed.
I disagree about rap. At one time it was more spoken word, but now it has all of the elements that make it music. But it is music that I do not enjoy.

Each generation thinks that theirs was the last generation with good music. I am no different. I like some new music, but as a whole think good music ended with my youth.

I refuse, with my Greek scholar friend, to say that rap is music. It has no melody, which is essential in music. It is poetry, yes, one element of music. But without melody it is not music. The Bible even teaches this:
Isa 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
Isa 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
Am 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

 

[John of Japan]

There are several worth listening to, but pop isn't my favorite.

People did not all of a sudden stop being able to sing. Culture changed.
I disagree about rap. At one time it was more spoken word, but now it has all of the elements that make it music. But it is music that I do not enjoy.

Each generation thinks that theirs was the last generation with good music. I am no different. I like some new music, but as a whole think good music ended with my youth.

When culture changes, music changes, and not always for the better. The pattern nowadays in pop music is the slide, and it is not good music. Again, vibrato has mostly gone by the wayside. Also, the lyrics are frequently filthy, especially in rap. Go ahead and defend it if you wish, but you'll never convince me. As a culture degenerates, so does their music, because music is part of culture.

Example: Buddhism does not have hymns or praise songs. Why? It is a degenerate religion, in which a person is encouraged to be completely inward focused, aiming for "enlightenment," which is a very selfish goal.

Oh, and by the way, classical musicians and their orchestra always dress very nicely, usually suits for the men--one more part of culture that believes in dressing respectfully.

 

[JonC]

I refuse, with my Greek scholar friend, to say that rap is music. It has no melody, which is essential in music. It is poetry, yes, one element of music. But without melody it is not music. The Bible even teaches this:
Isa 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
Isa 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
Am 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Lol.....that was my point too. I love Ravel's Boléro. It can be played with so much emotion. But Ravel said it had no music in it (it lacked music development). But, again, you are mischaracterizing things based on old stereotypes. Rap music has melody. It just isn't something I like.

 

[JonC]

When culture changes, music changes, and not always for the better. The pattern nowadays in pop music is the slide, and it is not good music. Again, vibrato has mostly gone by the wayside. Also, the lyrics are frequently filthy, especially in rap. Go ahead and defend it if you wish, but you'll never convince me. As a culture degenerates, so does their music, because music is part of culture.

Example: Buddhism does not have hymns or praise songs. Why? It is a degenerate religion, in which a person is encouraged to be completely inward focused, aiming for "enlightenment," which is a very selfish goal.

Oh, and by the way, classical musicians and their orchestra always dress very nicely, usually suits for the men--one more part of culture that believes in dressing respectfully.

I agree that when culture changes music changes, and I agree that the older generation believes it is not for the better. The musc you like (you gave a cover of the Drifters) was considered a change for the worse by the generation before. The Drifters were accused of, for example, as singing perverted music.

Mobsters also wear suits.

 

[JonC]

It depends what you mean by these. Because traditions (e.g., wearing a suit to church) cannot be enforced, and I doubt that Paul or Peter or any other member of the early church was wearing a suit and tie.

However, there is a certain aspect of what we wear that must conform to Scriptural standards. For example, the Bible defines "nakedness" as including the loins and thighs. Therefore, if people (male or female) are wearing clothing that don't cover that area, they are naked in God's eyes, and I don't believe that God would be pleased for His children to worship Him in such a disrespectful manner.

I think that there's two ditches. One that many fall into is judging others for wearing something they personally wouldn't wear, even though it still falls in line with biblical standards. The other is that clothing doesn't matter at all, which is also wrong, else God would not have explicitly commanded modest clothing be worn (1 Timothy 2:9).

Now, I will put this out here: I know for a fact that what I believe the Bible teaches about modesty is not popular, but nonetheless I believe it to be so from clear statements of Scripture.

I agree, but need to point out that in 1 Timothy 2:9 "modesty" is speaking against wearing fancy hair styles, gold jewlery, pearls, etc..

 

[Servant of Jehovah]

I agree, but need to point out that in 1 Timothy 2:9 "modesty" is speaking against wearing fancy hair styles, gold jewlery, pearls, etc..

I believe those things to be examples of immodesty, not the only things the verse covers. For example, in Proverbs 7:10, it mentions that there is a such thing as "the attire of an harlot". So there are certain clothing that would be immodest.

The KJV rendering of 1 Timothy 2:9 says broided hair, which is an old word for braided. Thus, braided hair is condemned scripturally. So do with that as thou wilt.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree that when culture changes music changes, and I agree that the older generation believes it is not for the better. The musc you like (you gave a cover of the Drifters) was considered a change for the worse by the generation before. The Drifters were accused of, for example, as singing perverted music.

Um, no, I didn't endorse the Drifters or any other group in the songs sung by Under the Streetlamp. I was simply pointing out one more group (UTS) that wears suits in our culture. Please stop twisting my words and trying to make me say more than I have.

Mobsters also wear suits.

Exactly!! And why do they wear suits? To show respect for each other and to seek respect for themselves! Likewise, I believe that dressing nicely for church (not necessarily a suit) shows respect and honor towards the house of God, the man of God, other believers, etc.

Japanese yakuza gangsters also wear suits for certain occasions. I am very familiar with the yakuza, having seen three come to Christ in Japan. The reason for their suits? Again, respect.