Culture and Worship

[Sapper Woody]

Hello, Baptist Board. It has been somewhere around seven or eight years since I have posted here. A lot has happened in my life since then. I traveled and sang Southern Gospel music, started my own Southern Gospel group and traveled in the Tennessee / Alabama area, doing about 60 dates per year. I then settled down, and attended Liberty University where I graduated with a BS in Worship Studies with a Commercial Performance Cognate. I am now in school to get my MA in Music Education, after which I will go back to Worship Studies for my PhD.

I have written extensively (nothing academically published) on the topic of worship and music standards, especially as it relates to IFB churches (I grew up IFB). I am curious as to your opinions, and put the question to you here; how much should culture impact the worship in a church? This question extends to both churches here in the USA, and in other countries.

 

[JonC]

I would say culture should impact our worship to the extent that our culture influences our Christian lives. I believe this is a component of worshipping in spirit and truth (not putting on pretenses).

Essayons!

 

[kyredneck]

how much should culture impact the worship in a church?

Have any examples for illustration? I would expect it's something that occurs naturally on it's own.

 

[Ascetic X]

how much should culture impact the worship in a church? This question extends to both churches here in the USA, and in other countries.

Culture impacts how people dress, what they eat, and other aspects of life. So culture will impact the styles of music in a church.

When I was a teenager, I liked the Christian rock music of musicians like Larry Norman. But now that I’m older, I prefer the traditional hymns. Churches now have contemporary worship services and traditional worship services at different times on Sunday or mixed in one service. I avoid the contemporary services.

I will add that hypnotic repetitious praise choruses are a development that I do not like.

Worship should include praise reports, silent contemplation, and prayer requests.

 

[JonC]

Culture impacts how people dress, what they eat, and other aspects of life. So culture will impact the styles of music in a church.

When I was a teenager, I liked the Christian rock music of musicians like Larry Norman. But now that I’m older, I prefer the traditional hymns. Churches now have contemporary worship services and traditional worship services at different times on Sunday or mixed in one service. I avoid the contemporary services.

I will add that hypnotic repetitious praise choruses are a development that I do not like.

Worship should include praise reports, silent contemplation, and prayer requests.

I get what you mean by preferences changing, although I am kinda the opposite. I grew up loving old hymns (add a few Gathier songs). But now I find many of my old favorite hymns much like mere repetition in prayer. Today I enjoy contemporary worship music much more. The repetition in several Psalms helped me get past some of the repetition in contemporary worship.

What I find difficult is the constant changing of songs. Sometimes by the time I "get" a song the congregation has moved on to other ones.

Don't get me wrong - I like new songs. But I think I'd like it better if one was introduced at a time. I am getting too old to learn 5 new songs at once.

 

[Ben1445]

I get what you mean by preferences changing, although I am kinda the opposite. I grew up loving old hymns (add a few Gathier songs). But now I find many of my old favorite hymns much like mere repetition in prayer. Today I enjoy contemporary worship music much more. The repetition in several Psalms helped me get past some of the repetition in contemporary worship.

What I find difficult is the constant changing of songs. Sometimes by the time I "get" a song the congregation has moved on to other ones.

Don't get me wrong - I like new songs. But I think I'd like it better if one was introduced at a time. I am getting too old to learn 5 new songs at once.

My understanding of the contemporary music scene is that the reason for the constant switching to new songs is because the people who are making their money from it are constantly pushing through the new music in order to maximize their profits. Coming from me it may sound like a conspiracy theory. The source I heard it from was credible though. I can’t remember where it was exactly that it was explained. (That is why it may seem like a conspiracy theory)
“Church” music is not monetized any less than the world’s music.

 

[rockytopva]

Worship changes from generation to generation. I personally miss the old camp meeting piano and worship. But... Where to find it these days?

Worship... To me this is the best...

God Preserve Thy People...
Grant salvation to Thy people, Lord,
and we pray Thee bless thine inheritance, O God.
Grant vict'ry to those who fight to save our righteous faith and our dear sacred land.
and from all evil deliver us.
Give victory to our Orthodox Emperor Nicholas Pavlovich
Bestow victory to Orthodox Christians over enemies.
Then the guardian of perfect grace, the cross will forever be.
The cross will forever be
The cross will be, the cross.

God Preserve Thy People/God Save the Tsar....
Grant salvation to Thy people, Lord,
and we pray Thee bless thine inheritance, O God.
Grant victory to those who fight to save our righteous faith and our dear sacred land.
And we pray Thee bless thine inheritance, our dear sacred land, our sacred land.
God save our sacred land.
God grant us victory , victory against our foe!
God save our sacred land!
Give Us Peace! - 1812 Overture

 

[JonC]

My understanding of the contemporary music scene is that the reason for the constant switching to new songs is because the people who are making their money from it are constantly pushing through the new music in order to maximize their profits. Coming from me it may sound like a conspiracy theory. The source I heard it from was credible though. I can’t remember where it was exactly that it was explained. (That is why it may seem like a conspiracy theory)
“Church” music is not monetized any less than the world’s music.

I doubt that is the case. At least for my church, there is no money to be nade by switching songs.

Now that I think of it, that idea would apply to older styles, like when I grew up. Hymnals were published quite often. But then it was published in the form of media to be displayed on a screen.

I doubt that the reason for hymnals was profit (or only profit). I get that the hymnal companies existed for profit. But I do not know that this was the only reason.

These "new" songs I have to learn are new to me. We have to remember we are talking about a few songs sung in a worship service among millions of songs out there.


I believe that our worship should be genuine, do I do not hate new songs as they reflect the current people (as opposed to songs written by our great great grand fathers, which was contemporary to them).

But at the same time I think we all enjoy traditions. It is comfortable. The problem is this may not be our worship but instead the worship of our forefathers. And, of course, these traditions are also very new to others who were not exposed to them.


I enjoy new songs - even as I find too many at one time difficult for me - because it illustrates God moving in a younger generation. Too many older Christians lament a decline in faithful Christianity based on a decline in tradition. I have been, and am constantly, amazed at how God has worked in the younger generation (early 20's snd teens). It seems like a couple of generations were skipped. But the current youth, well, I am amazed.

And I see that reflected in some of the newer songs.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I have written extensively (nothing academically published) on the topic of worship and music standards, especially as it relates to IFB churches (I grew up IFB). I am curious as to your opinions, and put the question to you here; how much should culture impact the worship in a church? This question extends to both churches here in the USA, and in other countries.

I have spent the past 15 years intensely researching what has been written on the subject of music and the Bible, etc. I would be interested in reading what you have written about "the topic of worship and music standards, especially as it relates to IFB churches."

 

[jardows]

Hello, Baptist Board. It has been somewhere around seven or eight years since I have posted here. A lot has happened in my life since then. I traveled and sang Southern Gospel music, started my own Southern Gospel group and traveled in the Tennessee / Alabama area, doing about 60 dates per year. I then settled down, and attended Liberty University where I graduated with a BS in Worship Studies with a Commercial Performance Cognate. I am now in school to get my MA in Music Education, after which I will go back to Worship Studies for my PhD.

I have written extensively (nothing academically published) on the topic of worship and music standards, especially as it relates to IFB churches (I grew up IFB). I am curious as to your opinions, and put the question to you here; how much should culture impact the worship in a church? This question extends to both churches here in the USA, and in other countries.

First - are you still at LU? They are my current employer. If you are still with them, maybe we could meet up for lunch some day!

Second - for the topic at hand: I believe we have done ourselves a great disservice by conflating worship with music. Music in the church is part of our worship. So is the preaching, the serving, the discipleship, communion, fellowship, evangelizing, family training. So before we can answer any of the original question, we have to determine biblically what is the purpose of Music in the Church Service. I highlight that because this is a very specific situation that is separate from music in our personal lives. It is only after we can answer this question that we can fully address your original question.

We should never allow culture to dictate the purpose of our music in the church service - that should always come from a biblical consideration. I am afraid that too many churches do not give any thought to the biblical teachings about the purpose of music in the church, and simply substitute their own reasoning that allows them to use the music they prefer.

I have observed three major purposes for music in the church provided:
1. Evangelistic - music in the church is used as a tool to attract people to the church service so they hear the gospel
2. Bringing us into the presence of God - music is used as our avenue into God's presence, either transporting us spiritually to Him, or bringing His presence to us.
3. Teaching - music should be used as a medium to teach the truths about God in a memorable way.

If the biblical purpose for church music is #1, then culture should have a significant influence on the music, as it is create a bridge between culture and the church. If it is #2, then some consideration should be given, as it is a very individual experience, and the music should be done in a manner that people feel connected. If it is #3, then cultural influence on the music should have much less consideration, as the primary use of style will be to complement the messaging, rather than being popular.

At risk of this being too long a post, let me give some of my personal thoughts on the matter. As I study scripture, there are a few passages that give us direction for music in the assembly, the primary being Colossians 3:16. Based on that, I lean more towards purpose #3, though I feel that it is an incomplete understanding of church music. I find no scriptural basis to tie music to evangelization efforts. Music can be used to evangelize, but scripturally I find no basis for that being a primary or even significant purpose for it in the church service. I find purpose #2 to be rather antithetical to scriptural teachings and results in an emotional response rather than a true spiritual response. I am still a bit nebulous on precise thoughts, and am working through the questions to come up with more specific statements that I feel align with scripture.

 

[Salty]

Second - for the topic at hand: I believe we have done ourselves a great disservice by conflating worship with music. Music in the church is part of our worship. So is the preaching, the serving, the discipleship, communion, fellowship, evangelizing, family training. So before we can answer any of the original question, we have to determine biblically what is the purpose of Music in the Church Service. I highlight that because this is a very specific situation that is separate from music in our personal lives. It is only after we can answer this question that we can fully address your original question.

We should never allow culture to dictate the purpose of our music in the church service - that should always come from a biblical consideration. I am afraid that too many churches do not give any thought to the biblical teachings about the purpose of music in the church, and simply substitute their own reasoning that allows them to use the music they prefer.

Jardows -
I agree with you 107 % (that extra 7 makes it perfect)
When someone tells me they are the "Worship Pastor" to me, it sounds like music is the most important part of worship.
Yes, music should be a good part of the (entire) worship service - but the preaching of the Word should be the top priority!

 

[rockytopva]

I have sat through what sounded more to me as a rock concert wondering...

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. - Isaiah 29

 

[Ben1445]

I doubt that is the case. At least for my church, there is no money to be nade by switching songs.

I don’t think I said what I meant clearly. I don’t know what your church does. I’m speaking generally.
many churches buy their music ministry as a subscription service that covers copyright, provides lyrics to display, and always has the newest latest song.

In this way the churches become song pushers for the everybody who is trying to sell their songs. You hear a song you like so you go buy it because your church doesn’t sing it anymore.

Now that I think of it, that idea would apply to older styles, like when I grew up. Hymnals were published quite often. But then it was published in the form of media to be displayed on a screen.

Buying hymnals is a big undertaking because you would want them to match. In my experience if you want to add a song you don’t buy new hymnals, you glue it to the cover of the hymnals.

I doubt that the reason for hymnals was profit (or only profit). I get that the hymnal companies existed for profit. But I do not know that this was the only reason.

I’m with you here. I didn’t think we were talking about hymnals.
You sing new songs out of your hymnals?? Hold on, I’m getting aspirin. I’ll be right back!

These "new" songs I have to learn are new to me. We have to remember we are talking about a few songs sung in a worship service among millions of songs out there.

I would be surprised if your church is not on a music subscription service from what you say. It would be interesting to find out how new all your songs are.

I believe that our worship should be genuine, do I do not hate new songs as they reflect the current people (as opposed to songs written by our great great grand fathers, which was contemporary to them).

I’m not a fan of newer music. As I read what you wrote current people I was reminded of the prophets. I wonder if Jeremiah used the music of his time. Or I wonder if he didn’t want to associate with the current trends of his day.
I, myself, prefer my grandparents, grandparents music. Based on the things that they wrote, I find them to be more spiritually inclined than the current trends.

But at the same time I think we all enjoy traditions. It is comfortable. The problem is this may not be our worship but instead the worship of our forefathers. And, of course, these traditions are also very new to others who were not exposed to them.

I enjoy new songs - even as I find too many at one time difficult for me - because it illustrates God moving in a younger generation. Too many older Christians lament a decline in faithful Christianity based on a decline in tradition. I have been, and am constantly, amazed at how God has worked in the younger generation (early 20's snd teens). It seems like a couple of generations were skipped. But the current youth, well, I am amazed.

And I see that reflected in some of the newer songs.

I am looking at more than music when considering their faithfulness. It is not about tradition.

Revelation 3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Don’t misunderstand me, I drink as much coffee as the next Baptist over, but I don’t really like the coffee bar club type Christianity.

 

[JonC]

I don’t think I said what I meant clearly. I don’t know what your church does. I’m speaking generally.
many churches buy their music ministry as a subscription service that covers copyright, provides lyrics to display, and always has the newest latest song.

In this way the churches become song pushers for the everybody who is trying to sell their songs. You hear a song you like so you go buy it because your church doesn’t sing it anymore.


Buying hymnals is a big undertaking because you would want them to match. In my experience if you want to add a song you don’t buy new hymnals, you glue it to the cover of the hymnals.


I’m with you here. I didn’t think we were talking about hymnals.
You sing new songs out of your hymnals?? Hold on, I’m getting aspirin. I’ll be right back!


I would be surprised if your church is not on a music subscription service from what you say. It would be interesting to find out how new all your songs are.


I’m not a fan of newer music. As I read what you wrote current people I was reminded of the prophets. I wonder if Jeremiah used the music of his time. Or I wonder if he didn’t want to associate with the current trends of his day.
I, myself, prefer my grandparents, grandparents music. Based on the things that they wrote, I find them to be more spiritually inclined than coffee bar club type Christianity.

Exactly. That is why I have been so impressed with several churches. It seems that faithfulness (other than "Christian values") has skipped a generation or two.

You mention coffee bars. That is ironic. These kids gather during the week at coffee bars to study the Bible and witness to others. But that is also their culture.

I am not eggagerating when I say that I am amazed at God's work within these Christians.

I am talking about these kids studying daily and meeting 4 to 5 times a week to study together, attending church whenever the doors are open, Christian gatherings at the college, etc. Christianity is not something they do but is a part of their identity.

Don't try to eat with any of them at a restaurant without praying first, and witnessing to the waitress. Not even an appetizer (I like munching).

I took a Uber last week (to pick up my car from the shop). The driver was giving his testimony. He was around 40 years old but was baptized a few months ago. His son (17 years old) witnessed to him. He was reached by God through his culture (his son witnessed through Christian rap or hip hop...a genre I do not enjoy).


I may not always get the younger culture. Often I do not. But I can see God working, and I appreciate that.