Cured

[GordonSlocum]

Here. Ignoring this conversation for the most part because it is rehash of old stuff, long answered.

The typical Calvinist position is that regeneration precedes faith. That, however, it not necessary to be a Calvinist. A Calvinist holds that there is a unilateral, sovereign, effectual work of God on the unbeliever that certainly and necessarily brings him to faith and repentance. Most calls that regeneration. I call it the effectual call.

Regeneration prior to faith is not a sine qua non of Calvinism, though it is what some Calvinists believe. The sine qua non is the unilateral, sovereign, effectual work of God on the unbeliever. What that work is called (whether regeneration or effectual call) is not the point. The point is that it exists.

I do not believe regeneration precedes faith for the following reasons: 1) regeneration is life, and 2) life, in Scripture, is said to be the result of faith and repentance (John 20:31; Acts 11:17-18; etc.)

The difference between myself, Russell55, JArthur, and others on this point is one of semantics: What do we call that work? It is not one of substance. We agree that a unilateral, sovereign, effectual work must take place.

I am a Calvinist because I recognize that the Bible teaches that man will never come to God on his own, but when God calls a man to salvation, He does a unilateral, internal work of illumination and enabling that certainly leads to faith and repentance. Such work is done only for the elect; it is not a universal work.

Larry I appreciate your clear answer. We do disagree but it is refreshing that you have stated it clearly.

 

[webdog]

This is a great Calvinistic verse. It is at the heart of Calvinism. God has awakened a man's understanding and caused him to respond in belief for salvation.

That's also a great non cal verse, because that is exactly what I believe. That's what the Gospel is for.

 

[christianyouth]

Really cool acronymn!
John 6:44-No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.

What does this draw mean?

Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament - Grk. Elko - To compel by irresistible authority.

It means, 'to compel'.

The word compel is much more forceful then the word draw. Look at two other NT passages that use this word elko .

James 2:6 - But you have dishonered the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?"

That word drag is the same work elko. Do you see the forcefulness?

Since Arminians believe the 'wooing' of the spirit, lets substitute the word 'woo' for drag, since essentially your camp thinks that is what John 6:44 means.

"Do not the rich oppress you and woo you into the courts?"
You see, that is a ridiculous translation of the word!

Acts 16:19 - But when her masters saw their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

Same word, Elko.

(paraphrased in exerpts from Chosen By God by R.C. Sproul)

Please answer these. Do not fall back on the argument that because God places the obligation on people to believe, they must therefor have the natural moral ability to believe. Luther handled that one nicely roughly 500 years ago.


anticipating your response,
Andy

 

[skypair]

whatever (and all who are engaging him/her)

I agree with whatever that regeneration and salvation are not the same things.

Regeneration is the "new birth" -- the beginning of salvation.

But complete salvation justification, sanctification, and glorification. Slavation is first of all receiving justification and faith of our soul without having been regenerated yet. This was OT-style salvation in which they were NOT regenerated/born again yet. They await the "resurrection of the just" before they will be "regenerated."

Which is exactly how we can KNOW where regeneration is received in its proper order. WE receive regeneration by the Holy Spirit indwelling us while we live so that we may be sanctified in our spirit.

Hence, the following construct (free will):

Hear -- all hear. There is nothing mystical or hidden about the gospel -- ALL have or will hear.

Believe -- salvation hinges on MAN'S choice to believe or not believe.

Believing leads to obedience. The crux of the whole gospel is trust in God rather than self. Read Hebrews 11 -- "BY FAITH NOAH [OBEYED]" Do you see that? So what do YOU have to obey? Repent and receive Christ (Rom 10:9-10, 1Cor 15:1-4, qtal.). Does anyone not know this?

In return, God gives what He promises in His gospel -- faith!

Now in the NT, because Christ has died and sent His Comforter, we are reborn of that Spirit -- regenerated. Now we can see the "hidden wisdom" of God and have all the gifts spoken of in 1Cor 12:7-11!

Pastor Larry is correct in "choosing his terms carefully" regarding "effectual call" vs "regeneration." Unfortunately, it is us who make the call effectual only IF by believing!

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

Unfortunately, it is us who make the call effectual only IF by believing!

Perhaps you don't understand what "effectual" means. "Effectual call" means that the call effects the response, or produces it. The "efficacy" is in the call and is demonstrated by the response. The response does not, and cannot, make the call efficacious.

 

[pinoybaptist]

........ This was OT-style salvation in which they were NOT regenerated/born again yet.

So, you are saying that Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Job, Noah, Samson, Ruth, Esther, Isaiah, Malachi, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel, and those Old Testament saints named in Hebrews 11 were all of them unregenerate ?
Moses and Elijah are in heaven, in an unregenerate state ?
Dead in sins and trespasses but in heaven, the land of the Living God ?

Hear -- all hear. There is nothing mystical or hidden about the gospel -- ALL have or will hear.

Paul seems to disagree with you. He says in 2 Corinthians 4:3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost"

The gospel is hid to those for whom the gospel is not intended for.
The gospel is for God's people, and only God's people. It is good news of their salvation, apart from works, wrought for them by a God who loved them before they loved Him, who knew them before they knew Him, and this is something the unregenerate do not understand, and will not accept, because it goes against the grain of their pride to have nothing at all to glory in before God.

Believe -- salvation hinges on MAN'S choice to believe or not believe.

Wrong ! Salvation hinges on God's mercy. Salvation is a finished fact for those to whom it was intended.

Breaktime at work is almost over, so we'll talk again when I get home.

 

[christianyouth]

skypair,

I can see where you are coming from. Your view makes complete sense IF radical depravity is not true, and if man can choose to have faith in God. If you hold that they can, then your understanding is completley coherent. :thumbs:

However, I dont know what you do with the verses like "No man can come unto me enless my Father draws him." , ect. I believe I demonstrated how this does not mean to woo or entice, but rather to compel! Paraphrased, no one has the ability to come to God on his or her own, but it needs a divine initiating of salvation by God.

I cant make sense of that verse with Arminianism, or with holding to the CURED theology.

Andy

 

[GordonSlocum]

It all has to do with God's Absolute Knowledge. Election is on the basis of Foreknowledge.

Who is it that God draws. Those He elected in eternity past in Christ of whom He foreknew they would believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

I cant make sense of that verse with Arminianism, or with holding to the CURED theology.

Andy

Andy,

CURED is not a system of theology in any ones book. CURED exist in the mind of one person. GS wote this on his own and brings is up every other month. Most of us just get tried of showing all the holes in the so called CURED, so just let others have a good time of patting GS on his back. I myself have been over it 2 times with him, and pin him down to answer, till he gets mad for making him say things he does not want to say. Look under his profile and check out his list of post to see what I mean. I'm not the only one. Others have done the same....yet he keeps trying...bless his heart.

Yet...go after it...if you want. Just get ready for some name calling when he gets mad at ya.

 

[Jarthur001]

It all has to do with God's Absolute Knowledge. Election is on the basis of Foreknowledge.

Who is it that God draws. Those He elected in eternity past in Christ of whom He foreknew they would believe.

GS...you know better.

You have been shown 10s of times how wrong you are on this view of foreknowledge. Do we have to go though this again???

If so...write it down this time.

 

[webdog]

CURED is not a system of theology in any ones book. CURED exist in the mind of one person.

Then it's a theology in someone's book.

Most of us just get tried of showing all the holes in the so called CURED, so just let others have a good time of patting GS on his back.

Most of us get tired of showing all the holes in the so called TULIP.

I myself have been over it 2 times with him, and pin him down to answer, till he gets mad for making him say things he does not want to say.

Maybe your unorthodox debate tactics has something to do with it.

 

[Jarthur001]

Maybe your unorthodox debate tactics has something to do with it.

Yes...shame on me for asking someone to prove what they say.

 

[webdog]

Yes...shame on me for asking someone to prove what they say.

Your right, please list all of the calvinst debate tactics between 1445 and 1645 :laugh:

 

[GordonSlocum]

GS,

One big problem - Paul said that when we were dead God made us alive, which (he says) proves that it is by grace that we are saved, since our faith is a response to regeneration (which is "being made alive"). You've got some dead men hearing, agreeing, believing and surrendering, to which God responds by saving them, and other dead men remaining dead because they choose to. As Paul might say, "where's the grace?"

It all about correct perspective. Correct perspective - correct conclusions.

 

[Helen]

I have thought for a long time that one of the major Calvinist errors is in their idea of what death means. Death means separation, not unconsciousness. When we die here on earth, we are not unconscious -- we are separated from our bodies. And when we are dead spiritually, we are not unconscious either -- we are separated from God.

If spiritual death is actually spiritual unconsciousness then hell would have no meaning.

However, since it is actually separation from God, but in a very conscious state, God can plead with the unbeliever in Isaiah to 'come let us reason together', and the writer to the Hebrews can plead with them to not harden their hearts, and the person who wants to be saved can be told to believe on Christ.

So yes, a spiritually dead person can, indeed respond to God on his or her own. It is their choice regarding what they will do with the truth they have been presented with in their life.

 

[GordonSlocum]

I have thought for a long time that one of the major Calvinist errors is in their idea of what death means. Death means separation, not unconsciousness. When we die here on earth, we are not unconscious -- we are separated from our bodies. And when we are dead spiritually, we are not unconscious either -- we are separated from God.

If spiritual death is actually spiritual unconsciousness then hell would have no meaning.

However, since it is actually separation from God, but in a very conscious state, God can plead with the unbeliever in Isaiah to 'come let us reason together', and the writer to the Hebrews can plead with them to not harden their hearts, and the person who wants to be saved can be told to believe on Christ.

So yes, a spiritually dead person can, indeed respond to God on his or her own. It is their choice regarding what they will do with the truth they have been presented with in their life.

Great Insight
Common Sense Interpretation (Normal Literal All The Way)

 

[amity]

I have thought for a long time that one of the major Calvinist errors is in their idea of what death means. Death means separation, not unconsciousness. When we die here on earth, we are not unconscious -- we are separated from our bodies. And when we are dead spiritually, we are not unconscious either -- we are separated from God.

If spiritual death is actually spiritual unconsciousness then hell would have no meaning.

However, since it is actually separation from God, but in a very conscious state, God can plead with the unbeliever in Isaiah to 'come let us reason together', and the writer to the Hebrews can plead with them to not harden their hearts, and the person who wants to be saved can be told to believe on Christ.

So yes, a spiritually dead person can, indeed respond to God on his or her own. It is their choice regarding what they will do with the truth they have been presented with in their life.

I always heard death means separation from God, too. However, it also signifies total inability.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Helen,

I don't think Calvinism defines death the way you say it does. Spiritual death is separation from God. It is not spiritual unconsciousness. I have never read anyone say that that I can recall, and certainly not a published author. Perhaps some have said it on some internet bulletin board somewhere. Do you know of any author or speaker who puts it that way?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Funny but one person I remember teaching that to be spiritually dead is to be like a leaf dried up and brittle, and dead, meaning no life at all, is an out and out Arminian, whose name was Bob Hughes, now long gone to be with the Lord, missionary to the Philippines from the Bible Baptist Fellowship, International, whose home church used to be, I believe, in Missouri.

I beg to differ with anyone who says a spiritually dead person who is dead in sins and trespasses. like the Ephesian believers, before God quickened them, are able to make spiritual decisions for himself on his own.

No one can conjure up faith. Emotions, yes. Emotions can be stirred by a hellfire, Bible thumping, saliva spewing, receive Christ now or forever be damned preacher, and the listener can be frightened or emoted into walking down the aisle, and show "repentance", but how many out of ten are true Godly repentance ?

He must first be quickened by the Spirit, THEN, and ONLY THEN, will he repent, and turn to God, and he does so because God has elected him in eternity past to salvation, NOT to eternal salvation, but timely salvation, in which he obeys the gospel message, joins a gospel church, and lives a life separate unto God, distinct from this fallen world, receives blessings or chastisement as a natural outcome of his obedience or disobedience.

His eternal salvation is a long settled decision in God's mind, and if he never has occassion to hear the gospel, or join a gospel church, or live a life of obedience, it is of no consequence at all to his eternal destiny which is to be with God in eternity future, which is the destiny of all God's children in any theology, for it is salvation unto God's literal presence in His literal kingdom that Jesus Christ redeemed His people to.

If gospel obedience and joining a gospel church or making personal decisions about what he heard is meritorious to his eternal destiny, then the blood of the Lamb is no longer efficacious to anyone, the cross means nothing, and Jesus is not the only Savior.

Eternal salvation of God's children belongs to the Lord and only to the Lord, it is OF the Lord alone. God elected His people from among all the fallen race of Adam. All are fallen, including those whom He elected, therefore, none has any reason to boast, including the elect, because their election is purely of God's choice and mercy.

Jesus Christ hung on that cross knowing, fully well, as God, WHO he died for, knowing their names, their geographical location, their circumstances in life, the theologies or creeds they have and will embrace, their chronological circumstances, and knowing the exact number of His people.

In His own due time He will quicken each and everyone of them, as He did everything else and will do everything else in His own due time, not the creature's choice, and He will do so without means, not the preacher's voice, not the gospel, not anyone's testimony.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Pinoybaptist,

My friend, you have denied clear Scripture which makes belief in the message of Christ essential to salvation. Your distinction between eternal salvation and timely salvation is one unknown to the writers of Scripture. God works regeneration, whether before or after faith, in connection with the preaching of his Word. It is of the Lord alone that he does such, and he receives all the glory for it.