Cured

[skypair]

There's nothing "in the call." It is the call that brings faith and life. God unilaterally enables men through the call so that they respond. Only the elect react because only they receive the effectual calling..

God unilaterally enables ALL men to respond. Most just don't of their own free will. Some do -- of their own free will.

How does the call enable one and not another, Lar?? You can't explain it is the problem, right? You're like all Calvinists who ask, "Why, when I heard the sermon, did I respond and not my best buddy?"

And then you were made aware of this dogma that explained it all, didn't it? The "DOG"ma won't hunt, Lar. You've admitted response in some and not in others. That's free will at work. No body chained your buddy to his seat. He didn't hear different words (as if his "call" was any different than yours). And tomorrow, he might respond, right? It's in the individual that the decision is made to BELIEVE Christ. Then comes response/obedience unto faith.

Let me ask you (maybe this is the crux of the matter) -- are there a variety of experiences that can be called "responsive" to the "effectual call?" Is believing one is "elect" a response? Is "holy living" (J.M. Boice) a suitable response? What response do you consider to be "obedient" to the word and the "effectual call?"

skypair

 

[Blammo]

O.k., and what would you think of all those other people who were given the same offer of a trillion dollars but they refused? How stupid is that? You may not be able to take credit for the trillion dollars, but you could at least thank yourself for not being so stupid as to refuse the trillion dollars like the others did.

Really, Andy, mine was a poor analogy when it comes to the OFFER of salvation. The point of it was "who do you thank for the gift". Do you think, when kids unwrap presents Christmas morning, they thank themselves for unwrapping them, as if that is what produced the contents? Again, it is a poor analogy, because the kids are fully aware that something valuable is in each package.

This will not perfect the analogy, or even make it a good one, but...

(1) They do not KNOW the trillion dollars exists.
(2) They think they can earn their own trillion dollars.
(3) Stretching out the hand is an act of humility.

What do they have to lose? Pride.

 

[Andy T.]

I'm guessing all this was because you were made aware of your condition before God. Now - who opened your eyes to that? Was it you? How could that be possible?

Yep, you know the answer. I was a blind man, but now I see. God gets all the glory.

 

[skypair]

Larry (again)

So if unbelief is a sin, and all sin was paid for, then how does God remain just while sending people to hell for sins that were paid for?

I don't think your distinction between atonement and forgiveness is one that the Bible recognizes as you offer it here.

Here's, perhaps, the point -- salvation is a "covenant relationship." Like marriage, it calls for a DECISION by BOTH parties. And not just a "we're living together, aren't we" agreement like some make. I often feel that Calvinists would be quite content to live the Christian life and hope (cause that is all they are taught they can do if salvation is "all of God") hope it all turns out by-and-by. Let me ask you -- have you ever heard that salvation is a unilateral covenant like God with Abraham? That ALL the conditions for execution would be on God's side and none on your side?

Why do so many Calvinists not know whether they are "elect," Larry?

And why do they have almost no knowledge of prophecy? They NEVER teach the Revelation. I think (IMO)it is because they have changed the glory of God into an image man can understand and, in so doing ("Systematic Theology"), have become vain in their imaginations (Calvinism is for the elite of Christianity) and their foolish hearts have been darkened.

Which would you say, Larry -- Calvinism makes one wiser about Christianity? Scripture informs Calvinism? or vice versa -- Calvinism imparts meaning to scripture? I often feel like -- what with their "strained," different vocabulary -- that the latter seems more true.

Some say Calvinism IS the gospel. Ever hear that, Lar?

skypair

 

[Andy T.]

Really, Andy, mine was a poor analogy when it comes to the OFFER of salvation. The point of it was "who do you thank for the gift". Do you think, when kids unwrap presents Christmas morning, they thank themselves for unwrapping them, as if that is what produced the contents? Again, it is a poor analogy, because the kids are fully aware that something valuable is in each package.

This will not perfect the analogy, or even make it a good one, but...

(1) They do not KNOW the trillion dollars exists.
(2) They think they can earn their own trillion dollars.
(3) Stretching out the hand is an act of humility.

What do they have to lose? Pride.

I was once proud, until God made me humble. Then I chose Christ and chose Him freely. I wanted nothing else.

 

[Andy T.]

Skypair, I don't know if it bothers Pastor Larry, but your incessant habit of referring to him as 'Lar' I find very disrespectful. The only Larry that I call 'Lar' is my good buddy from college. Are you and Pastor Larry that close that you can refer to him as 'Lar'?

 

[Blammo]

I was once proud, until God made me humble. Then I chose Christ and chose Him freely. I wanted nothing else.

Yes!!! Amen!!!

But, you are focusing on what happens prior to salvation, I am not talking about that. AFTER salvation, who is to be thanked? (Whether Calvinist, Arminian, Non-Cal, etc.) My point is, the Arminian prayer post by TB was unrealistic, unfair, and uncalled for. Anybody who thanks themselves for salvation is UNSAVED. So, it appears, TB is saying you can't be saved, you can't offer your gratitude in the right direction, you can't understand where salvation comes from, unless you are a Calvinist.

I object.

 

[skypair]

Skypair, I don't know if it bothers Pastor Larry, but your incessant habit of referring to him as 'Lar' I find very disrespectful. The only Larry that I call 'Lar' is my good buddy from college. Are you and Pastor Larry that close that you can refer to him as 'Lar'?

I'll leave that up to him. Thanks.

sky

 

[Andy T.]

Blammo,

I agree that Arminians and non-Cals can be saved. And I agree that they truly thank God for their salvation. But in the end, their doctrine is inconsistent with that reality. Because according to their doctrine, they actually do retain some small credit for choosing on their own. Even though they may ignore that small credit and still sincerely thank God and glorify Him for all of it, they are living inconsistently with their own doctrine. More importantly, they are inconsistent with what the Bible teaches regarding their own salvation.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo,

I agree that Arminians and non-Cals can be saved. And I agree that they truly thank God for their salvation. But in the end, their doctrine is inconsistent with that reality. Because according to their doctrine, they actually do retain some small credit for choosing on their own. Even though they may ignore that small credit and still sincerely thank God and glorify Him for all of it, they are living inconsistently with their doctrine. More importantly, they are inconsistent with what the Bible teaches regarding their own salvation.

Nope

It's not like I was walking around sinning one day, and out of the blue, I decided 'there is a God' and 'I need to get saved' - 'I know, I got it, God gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (ME!!!) believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life' - 'I am going to say a magic prayer that will force God to save me' - 'WOW!!! It worked. Good job me'

 

[skypair]

Llarry, Gordon, Helen

Do you really not understand this? Unbelief is a sin. When you say that “sin cannot send you to hell. Unbelief does” you are making no sense.

I think we all need to agree that:

1) unbelief is a forgivable AND forgiven sin but

2) that rejection of the Spirit is unpardonable.

There IS something man can do that is unpardonable, unatonable, etc. -- it is denying the Spirit of God regarding salvation, saying that Christ is not the answer. You can never get "in Christ" unless you confess Him as Lord.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Salvation is not complicated. Here it is: "God saves sinners". People make it complicated by adding to that.

"Now say this prayer"
"Now go to the altar"
"Now get baptized"
"Now surrender your life"

All this is based on the idea that something must be added by man to the work of God. When we take a scripture "whosoever shall call..." and warp into a Baptist sacrament "repeat this prayer after me..." we are complicating the Gospel. We are too impatient, too eager for results, too unwilling to let God have the power. We don't think God can do the saving. It's gotta be "God has already done his part, now we must do ours". Now THAT'S COMPLICATED.

And YOUR response to God's plea for reconciliation is ...?

I heard a Christian tell another, "I don't like the way you share Christ with others."

The latter said, "Well, how do you do it?"

First man: "I don't."

Second man: "I like my way better."

FYI, it is NOT a Baptist sacrament. And if we were to get on that subject, you'd be "up a creek" as they say!

skypair

 

[Andy T.]

Nope

It's not like I was walking around sinning one day, and out of the blue, I decided 'there is a God' and 'I need to get saved' - 'I know, I got it, God gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (ME!!!) believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life' - 'I am going to say a magic prayer that will force God to save me' - 'WOW!!! It worked. Good job me'

But if you are a non-Cal, you still had the option of saying no, and thank goodness you had the smarts, wisdom or goodness to not say no. You do retain some small credit in the process, no matter how small.

 

[Blammo]

But if you are a non-Cal, you still had the option of saying no, and thank goodness you had the smarts, wisdom or goodness to not say no. You do retain some small credit in the process, no matter how small.

If you want to give me credit... fine.

It's funny, I did not feel smart, wise, or good when I felt compelled, mostly by fear, to say yes.

Good job, me, for feeling worthless, dirty, weak, ugly, helpless, and scared enough to say yes.


BTW, convinced by the word of God, the Holy Spirit. My life seemed good to me until I saw it through the light of scripture.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Andy T.]

Blammo,

I'm not the one giving you credit - it's non-Calvinistic doctrine that does.

There's a reason why you don't feel smart or good or any of those things. It's because you are redeemed by the blood of Christ; you are His, and the Spirit testifies to you that you are His. That is the reason you feel the way you do, no matter how inconsistent your doctrine may be on the matter.

 

[J.D.]

I respectfully disagree. My argument was against those who believe in predestination, which I do not.

Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Dear Lady, I know I'm butting in, but what you said really bothers me. If you don't believe in predestination, then what do you believe this is:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I would respectfully invite you to pull your head out of the sand and stop pretending that predestination doesn't exist.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo,

I'm not the one giving you credit - it's non-Calvinistic doctrine that does.

There's a reason why you don't feel smart or good or any of those things. It's because you are redeemed by the blood of Christ; you are His, and the Spirit testifies to you that you are His. That is the reason you feel the way you do, no matter how inconsistent your doctrine may be on the matter.

Here is 'my' doctrine:

"...I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (from 2 Tim 1:12)

The rest? I am still trying to fully understand. Glad to hear you have it all figured out, many of us don't.

 

[J.D.]

And YOUR response to God's plea for reconciliation is ...?

I heard a Christian tell another, "I don't like the way you share Christ with others."

The latter said, "Well, how do you do it?"

First man: "I don't."

Second man: "I like my way better."

FYI, it is NOT a Baptist sacrament. And if we were to get on that subject, you'd be "up a creek" as they say!

skypair

1. "be ye reconciled to God"

2. Nice story. However, logically speaking, you can't compare something to nothing and then rate it "better".

3. Okay, I'll bite. Go ahead and put me "up the creek". I assert that the "sinner's prayer" and "going to the altar" are Baptist sacraments/rituals. Prove me wrong.

 

[Andy T.]

Here is 'my' doctrine:

"...I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (from 2 Tim 1:12)

The rest? I am still trying to fully understand. Glad to hear you have it all figured out, many of us don't.

Nope, I don't have it all figured out. Far from it.

By the way, why is the "glad you have it all figured out" put-down always directed towards Calvinists? Gordon and Skypair certainly think they have it all figured out from their non-Cal perspective. And I'm sure someone who is struggling to believe Eternal Security could say the same to you, since you are convinced that ES is correct doctrine...'and have it all figured out.'

 

[Blammo]

Nope, I don't have it all figured out. Far from it.

By the way, why is the "glad you have it all figured out" put-down always directed towards Calvinists? Gordon and Skypair certainly think they have it all figured out from their non-Cal perspective. And I'm sure someone who is struggling to believe Eternal Security could say the same to you, since you are convinced that ES is correct doctrine...'and have it all figured out.'

Andy,

You said:

"There's a reason why you don't feel smart or good or any of those things. It's because you are redeemed by the blood of Christ; you are His, and the Spirit testifies to you that you are His. That is the reason you feel the way you do, no matter how inconsistent your doctrine may be on the matter."

That is why I responded as I did. You don't think that sounds like someone who ''has it all figured out"? If you don't want to be accused of having it all figured out, don't talk down to people. What is "my doctrine"? Where are the inconsistencies? I am STILL trying to figure things out. You speak as though you already know. Convince me.