Cured

[psalms109:31]

Grace

PL:

You and I may have our differences although we both hold to the Doctrine of Grace but let me tell you that these guys are here not to really sharpen iron but to prove that Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace are pure evil at worst and misguided at best.
But I will watch your debate.

Jesus is the grace of God and yes we want to share Him to the world.

God loved the world that He sent His Son and it is time to believe God. We been wondering around in the wilderness following the cloud of God running around in circles trying to get to the place God is wanting to take us, but He isn't leading us there because we are not doing what God wants us to do. It isn't one generation dying this time, but many. How many generations have we been waiting for Jesus to come down from the mountain top. saul before for he became Paul was a murderer of Christains and thought he was doing the will of God.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom -- sorry I said what I did. I know you are trying to be the best Christian you know how to be. And I realized that when I was 16, I had no idea of anything but the "simplicity that is in Christ Jesus."

My testimony doesn't need any "massaging" since then. My faith hasn't become more complex since that day -- just deeper. If Calvinism helps you, then at your age have at it! I just happen to think it is going to be one of those things that is consumed at the Bema along with the other thoughts, wisdom, and glroy of men (wood, hay, and stubble), 1Cor 3.

That's okay, skypair, no offense taken. Actually, Calvinism had little to do with it. It started ten years ago during a mission trip to Romania, where I observed Baptists whose faith had been forged under Nazism followed by 40 years of Communism--where a public confession of faith could get you killed.

I saw things there that sent me running for my Bible, because they do things differently from American Baptists. As a result, I becamed determined to test against God's word everything we Baptists do and say in presenting the gospel. One of the things that didn't past muster was my testimony. How I told it simply did not square with what I professed to believe the scriptures taught. Thus the "massaging" which followed.

 

[russell55]

I would like to nail the myth of mind bending to the wall. We have witnessed an attempt to derail the truth but diversion. I have been ask to list all the Greek Dictionaries, Lexicons that I have as a demonstration that if I have them some who some why I should humbly bow down and worship them.

Now to point out the fallacy of the attempt to dethrone the truth. Using Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich we read this as an explanation to define proginooskoo. This Lexicon states this concerning Romans 8:29, “Choose beforehand ‘TINA’ someone.”

(1) The word Choose is not in verse 29,
(2) The word TINA “someone” is not in verse 29.

Why then is this statement assigned to verse 29?

It is an interpretative statement and not a meaning. The author is interpretation and not defining.

I know this for a fact because I know the Greek and all the attempts to derail the truth and appeal to the Greek Lexicons is fine but futile when it is use to confuse you. Definition are not the same as interpretation. This verse does not, will not and never has stated or suggested or inferred this the idea “chosen beforehand someone” or to choose beforehand.


Here is a word for word listing of verse 29 Because whom he foreknew, also foreordained conformed of the image of the Son of him for the to be him firstborn among many brothers.

Here is the Greek transliterated, Hoti hous proegnoo kai pro,oopisen summorphous taas eikonos tou uion autou eis to einai auton proototokon en pollois adelphois.

Do you see this spelling in these words “Tana”? No it is not there. If you did not know Greek and someone showed you this from in the Lexicon you could be convinced that what is said was in the Greek. I am here to tell you that it is not. It is an interpretative statement period.

Here is it as it appears in the Lexicon, “Choose beforehand “tina” someone Ro 8:29:

Because you may be one that does not have the Greek language skills This may lead you to think or believe this statement is actually the wording of the text.

Go back and read all the translation I list. These are language experts and they simply translate it as it is.

The translations use the word foreknew because it's right to translate it as foreknew, because its equivalent English word is foreknew--and no one is arguing with you about that. But used in the NT, as it pertains to God in relation to people, foreknowing a person (or persons) also carries with it the idea of choosing that person (or persons) beforehand. And that's what a lexicon will tell you. People who really read the Greek use lexicons because they know how important they are in helping to understand the nuances of a word's meaning in the Greek, something that a simple translation of a word into the equivalent word in English can't do.

I don't know why I bother explaining, though. No matter what authoritative evidence is given to you, I suspect you'll stick to the same old song and dance, thinking you somehow know better than the experts.

 

[psalms109:31]

lex

We have no problem with the lexicon translation.

The scripture clearly shows why He choose them beforehand. God knew them before they did any right or wrong.

He said He will keep those who are meek and humble , who trust in the name of the Lord.

It isn't because you did any right or wrong, it is because we trust in Jesus.

So we can continue to know God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It is God who saves and and we as believers give God all the glory through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We can become one and fight together not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[GordonSlocum]

The translations use the word foreknew because it's right to translate it as foreknew, because its equivalent English word is foreknew--and no one is arguing with you about that. But used in the NT, as it pertains to God in relation to people, foreknowing a person (or persons) also carries with it the idea of choosing that person (or persons) beforehand. And that's what a lexicon will tell you. People who really read the Greek use lexicons because they know how important they are in helping to understand the nuances of a word's meaning in the Greek, something that a simple translation of a word into the equivalent word in English can't do.

I don't know why I bother explaining, though. No matter what authoritative evidence is given to you, I suspect you'll stick to the same old song and dance, thinking you somehow know better than the experts.

I totally disagree. This verse is clear and can not be forced to say what it does not say.

Be it Calvinism or some other view. The text is completely clear.

Interpretation comes form the meaning of the words and the context of which it is set in, grammar. Not your opinion or mine.

When interpretation leaves the meaning of the context / grammar you then leave reality and move into false teaching.

A normal literal translation has never, will never, can never support the notion that this word in this context means "choose before hand". I will stay with the text not a force view of it.

This discussion is a very clear example of presupposition overriding common sense and normal grammatical understanding.

Let me say this very clearly: If anyone of you Calvinist, Arminians, or other Views make a statement that you believe the Bible in a literal sense and then move form it to your personal convection you have then violated the truth.

Let the text speak for itself. I will deify any author regardless of who they are if they state what is not there. Don't mistake that statement to mean we should not read and study. But as soon as you or I pack our bags and follow a man or men and swear on every word they write we are in serious trouble.

I have completely demonstrated the exact wording, and meaning of the text. You could present me with millions of books on the subject and I will stay with the text within its context.

The Bible is the rule not the Lexicons. They are tools and yes they are imperfect. So are you and I. So lets get off this "they are so holy and lofty and smarter than anyone that has ever lived." They are just as human as you and I. We can honor them and their hard work but not statements they make that are not factual or correct. Just because it is a” Lexicon" does not mean it has no mistakes in it. I have demonstrated it clearly that this assertion is absolutely incorrect. You know it and I know it and I have completely revealed it and you can't prove me wrong because the Bible does not record the works, choose before hand in verse 29.

Glory to God - Let the Bible be true and all men liars. Pleas don't take me as a fool or stupid, I know the words, the grammar, the meanings so don't try to blow smoke at me, it will not work. Real smoke screens are saying the text says what it does not say.

For all out there in forum land that reads this - Please, don't let anyone intimidate you to reject the clear truth of God's word on the basis of intellectualism elitism. It is a smoke screen only used to defend that which can not legitimately supported in the text itself. Folks the words 'Choose before hand are not in verse 29. I tell you here on this forum that anyone asserting that it is a LIAR, not only intellectually dishonest but intentionally miss leading.

If however they will admit it does not say that and that it is their personal theological interpretation then and only then will they be honest with you and I and the Text of God's Word.

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B45C008.htm#V29

I have no reason of be deceptive. I have studied all my life and I am no different from you or any Tom, Dick or Harry. We need to Let God's work speak.

 

[GordonSlocum]

A word for word from the Greek to English translation:

Hotie - Because
Ous - whom
Pro-egnoo - fore-knew
Kai - and
Pro-oopisen - fore-ordained
Summorphous - conformend to
Tas - (long a sound) - of the
Eikonon - image (icon)
Tou - of the
Uiou - son
Autou - of him
Eis - for
To - the
Einai - to be
auton - him
Proototokon - first born
En - among
Pollois - many
Adelphois - brother

Can anyone who knows how to read see these words in this verse “choose before hand” Is it there anywhere? What does it say? It says what it says. What does it say then? It says what is says. Is that so hard.

If you think I am some kind of fool you are out to pasture for sure. I can parse every word, list the meaning of every word and demonstrate in honesty and from the grammar of this verse that says 100 percent. So if you think you can cast doubt, divert attention away from its words and grammatical relationships you have another thing coming.

Folks what you see in this verse above it God’s word not mine and it is what is.

You don’t have to know Greek to see the truth. The words are there for you to read for yourself.

Who will call me a liar? Bring it on.

Is there anyone foolish enough to say that the text does not say what it say?

 

[GordonSlocum]

People who really read the Greek use lexicons because they know how important they are in helping to understand the nuances of a word's meaning in the Greek, something that a simple translation of a word into the equivalent word in English can't do.

I know the Greek - Absolute Hog Wash - The verse in consideration is clear and no nuance you offer or I offer will change the meaning of the text and the word. There are no nuances to this word that will change what it says in this text and context. I defy you to prove it yourself form the grammar of the verse and the context it sets in. You can't you know it and so do I

 

[skypair]

Gordon

The middle verse in the whole Bible --- Psa 118:8

"Better to trust in the Lord than to put thy confidence in man."

You said it, brother!

I like Psa 109's explanation as well -- "The scripture clearly shows why He choose them beforehand. God knew them before they did any right or wrong."


skypair

 

[GordonSlocum]

The middle verse in the whole Bible --- Psa 118:8

"Better to trust in the Lord than to put thy confidence in man."

You said it, brother!

I like Psa 109's explanation as well -- "The scripture clearly shows why He choose them beforehand. God knew them before they did any right or wrong."


skypair

These so called "Smart Calvinist" who strut their stuff have run into a brick wall and have rightly been put in their place on this verse. The irreverence and pompous disregard for the clear truth in the passage is appalling.

I defy any one in any camp to show me and everyone where the words "choose before hand is in verse 29. I also deify anyone to show the world how smart they are that the verse contains the Greek word "Tina". It does not, never has and hopefully will never contain it, that is unless they succeed in fooling innocent people to believe that simply by demanding to know how many Greek works you have equals correct knowledge and support for Calvinism.

It is Pure Hog Wash.

 

[Jarthur001]

These so called "Smart Calvinist" who strut their stuff have run into a brick wall and have rightly been put in their place on this verse. The irreverence and pompous disregard for the clear truth in the passage is appalling.

I defy any one in any camp to show me and everyone where the words "choose before hand is in verse 29. I also deify anyone to show the world how smart they are that the verse contains the Greek word "Tina". It does not, never has and hopefully will never contain it, that is unless they succeed in fooling innocent people to believe that simply by demanding to know how many Greek works you have equals correct knowledge and support for Calvinism.

It is Pure Hog Wash.

Speaking only as a irreverent pompous poster ...better known as IPP ...I would like to ask you...

I'm not a smart Calvinist, but I am a dumb blind, programmed one. So...please tell me why you think this hurts my nose.

 

[russell55]

TI defy any one in any camp to show me and everyone where the words "choose before hand is in verse 29. I also deify anyone to show the world how smart they are that the verse contains the Greek word "Tina".

No one said those words were in the verse. Why do you suggest they did?

It does not, never has and hopefully will never contain it, that is unless they succeed in fooling innocent people to believe that simply by demanding to know how many Greek works you have equals correct knowledge and support for Calvinism.

No, it will never contain those words. No one said it did. The discussion was not about what words are in the verse, but about what one word in the verse means.

Some looked up the meaning of the word in various lexicons, and drew their conclusions from what they found there. Some refused to look it up in any lexicons. I'll let those following this thread decide for themselves who treated the text more honestly.

 

[GordonSlocum]

No one said those words were in the verse. Why do you suggest they did?
No, it will never contain those words. No one said it did. The discussion was not about what words are in the verse, but about what one word in the verse means.

Double Talk - The whole issue is as you have admitted - its in the red

Some looked up the meaning of the word in various lexicons, and drew their conclusions from what they found there. Some refused to look it up in any lexicons. I'll let those following this thread decide for themselves who treated the text more honestly.

The Meaning Words have meaning and the meaning of a word is what it is because of the word.

Pay close attention to the following IF you want to know the correct meaning of Foreknow or Proignoo.

I hope you know what you just said above. If you understand what you said you will agree with the "REAL MEANING"

It does not matter what source you use you will not find where they translate foreknow as "choose someone beforehand"

Fore-know means and is correctly intrepreted "to know beforehand" not "Choose someone beforehand"

Any dictionary or lexicom that suggest or states that is wrong. Why do I know it is wrong.

Because the word itself is not "Choose someone beforehand" But is "foreknew" and foreknew defined means "to know beforehand"

I would assume that you see the difference:

God knows something in advance "to know before Pro" not "choose someone before" it is not there and the word does not mean choose it means know

Foreknow - to know beforehand

No that kills my theology it means

choose someone beforehand

Folks this is what is taking blace with the Calvinist concerning this verse.

Lets just let the text and the Bible speak for itself gents.

 

[GordonSlocum]

these brilliant scholars get it right? Don't they know that Calvinist Philosophy is the standard not what the Bible says.

Just thousands up on thousands of brilliant people all coming to the same conclusion and few Holier Than Thou Do Gooders come along and call them liars and God's word a lie too. That is bold.

No dear ones: foreknew has never meant "choose someone beforehand"

I like that "Dead Ones" sounds kind of "pastorally like doesn't it"

The same is true of the other translations: here they are again for faster reference.

KJV 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

NKJV 29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren

NASV 29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

NIV 29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."


Word of word literal translation: Because whom (he) foreknew ................

Of all the translations and translators and editors that have repeatedly translated the word proegnoo (two words Pro and egnoo) before and know to say "foreknow" because that is what it says are stupid because they don't bow down to the Calvinist Philosophy and force translate the text to say what it does not say.

Here is the Calvinist perversions of the text according to their thinking ( It does not mean what it says) their mantra:

because whom (God) choose someone beforehand and ....... Using the exact words from the AGB lexicon.

Why is it that all the translators just can't get it correct. Why don't they understand the that the meaning of foreknew which is "to know beforehand" does not mean what it means but means what it does not mean "choose someone beforehand"

A world out there - Listen to what the Calvinist are saying, at least some of them, they can not accept the correct translation and meaning of the word "foreknow"

Correct translation and meaning

proignoo - foreknow - to know beforehand


Incorrect translation and meaning "choose know" and "choose someone beforehand"

There you have it The Truth vs. The _________ You fill in the blank

 

[Jarthur001]

GordonSlocum,

these brilliant scholars get it right? Don't they know that Calvinist Philosophy is the standard not what the Bible says.

You speak as if there is always a contrast between Calvinism and the Bible. Maybe you should study the Bible more and less of Calvinism, which you seem to always be attaching, and you will find there is no contrast, but rather parallel thought

Just thousands up on thousands of brilliant people all coming to the same conclusion and few Holier Than Thou Do Gooders come along and call them liars and God's word a lie too. That is bold.

I have no idea what you just said, but I know you that you hardly post with out attaching Calvinism, so I think you just called Calvinism a lie. If not now, you have before. This is a foolish BOLD statement that you have become known for.

No dear ones: foreknew has never meant "choose someone beforehand"

Like this... point

Foreknew ALWAYS....ALWAYS meant the same as election until the Arminian system of man arose and tried their best to change the meaning. It looks like you are one of many that was fooled by their claims. Yet when you pin them down as many has done you my friend, you will find they speak as double tongued thinker, who is out to lift the will of man and limit God. Why? As you have been shown before, foreknown and election when placed on the paper in the order which free-willers would have you think works, means election. The Bible is clear to what God knows....

"Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18)

God Knows for God decreed it. Does God have a plan or what???

I like that "Dead Ones" sounds kind of "pastorally like doesn't it"

What ever do you speak of?

The same is true of the other translations: here they are again for faster reference.

KJV 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

NKJV 29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren

NASV 29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

NIV 29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

As always, you seem to look at one verse. The passage is clear if you read the whole chapter. Look right above this verse and see if you can find anything about Gods plan design and purpose and the love of Gods people. Foreknowing means those God loved before.

28We are assured and know that [[j]God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose.

29For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was [k]aware and [l]loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

Word of word literal translation: Because whom (he) foreknew ................

Of all the translations and translators and editors that have repeatedly translated the word proegnoo (two words Pro and egnoo) before and know to say "foreknow" because that is what it says are stupid because they don't bow down to the Calvinist Philosophy and force translate the text to say what it does not say.

The word pro..I understand. Now please post what the word egnoo means.

Why is it that all the translators just can't get it correct. Why don't they understand the that the meaning of foreknew which is "to know beforehand" does not mean what it means but means what it does not mean "choose someone beforehand"

now please post what ginosko means. I rest my case.

A world out there - Listen to what the Calvinist are saying, at least some of them, they can not accept the correct translation and meaning of the word "foreknow"

Lets see if you can accept the real meaning...

Correct translation and meaning

proignoo - foreknow - to know beforehand

I have no idea what this word is, and where you got it. I do know it is not the word used in romans 8. Try the greek word proginosko and then maybe you will understand.

Incorrect translation and meaning "choose know" and "choose someone beforehand"

There you have it The Truth vs. The _________ You fill in the blank

Do I need to fill in the blank?

 

[amity]

Gordon - The passage states that whom God knew He did also predestinate, etc. If this means only that he "knew before" then the rest of the sentence is meaningless. Or are you saying, as the Bible does, that everyone whom God "knew before" was predestinated?

To preserve any meaning for the sentence, foreknowledge must be something more than just knowing in advance. Or did God also predestinate everyone to be conformed to the image of His Son?

And BTW, I have never heard anyone equate God's foreknowledge with election. They are two different things, obviously, according to the syntax of the sentence. The posts on this thread have been coming so fast and furious I have not been able to read all of them. If someone dealt with this already, please direct me to post number.

 

[russell55]

And BTW, I have never heard anyone equate God's foreknowledge with election.

The point was made, earlier in the thread, that BDAG, which is supposed to be the gold standard of lexicons, along with many other lexicons, say it means something like choose beforehand in this passage. It would mean something like that in Romans 11: 2, too: God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew!

They are two different things, obviously, according to the syntax of the sentence.

Not really, in this verse. God chooses people, and then he destines them for all the other things in the verse: calling, justification, glorification.

 

[russell55]

JOf all the translations and translators and editors that have repeatedly translated the word proegnoo (two words Pro and egnoo) before and know to say "foreknow" because that is what it says are stupid

No one has said they are stupid. In fact, I don't think anyone has said they should have translated it differently.

A world out there - Listen to what the Calvinist are saying, at least some of them, they can not accept the correct translation and meaning of the word "foreknow"

No one has said it should be translated differently. It should be translated "foreknew", but we have to understand that the Greek word translated "foreknew" has a somewhat different range of meaning than the English word foreknew, a range of meaning that includes choose [someone] beforehand.

 

[amity]

The point was made, earlier in the thread, that BDAG, which is supposed to be the gold standard of lexicons, along with many other lexicons, say it means something like choose beforehand in this passage. It would mean something like that in Romans 11: 2, too: God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew!

Not really, in this verse. God chooses people, and then he destines them for all the other things in the verse: calling, justification, glorification.

Then if ' to foreknow' means 'to choose before' then what does 'predestinate' mean? They cannot be synonyms.

 

[Helen]

I think if the Calvinists will look at the predestination verses in context, they will find that those who are saved are predestined for certain things, and not that they were predestined to be saved.

God knew ahead of time what the choices would be, but the choices were freely offered and very really possible for all people. Those who chose the truth were led to Christ and predestined to be adopted as sons and daughters, predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and it was predestined that this would be accomplished by the work of the Holy Spirit.

But it was never predestined who the believers would be.

 

[russell55]

Then if ' to foreknow' means 'to choose before' then what does 'predestinate' mean? They cannot be synonyms.

Predestinate would be determining the destiny of those who are chosen. They are chosen as God's own, and their destiny is to be conformed to the image of his son. The predestining tells you the purpose for which those foreknown were foreknown.