Dallas Theological Seminary

[Rhetorician]

Hey Gang:

I was influenced heavily by a "Bob Jones Man" as my home pastor in an SBC church. Many of you have heard me say that he baptized me, married my wife and I, and ordained me to the Gospel ministry.

I then went to MABTS where Dispensationalism was rampant. I ended up at Crichton College (then Mid South Bible College) where there was Dallas Theological grads teaching.

My questions are these, and I don't mind if the OP meanders a bit:

1. Has DTS influenced the SBC?

2. Is so, "how?"

3. Is it "good" or "bad" for the SBC?

It has been a few days since there was any action on this section of the BB and I just wanted to stir the pot a bit. But, they are good questions and I don't know if they have ever been asked before.

I hope this engenders a lively and well thought out discussion.

sdg!:thumbs:

rd

 

[mjohnson7]

Yes.....

I think there is a lot of evidence that DTS has influenced the SBC. However, I think it began with the Bible Conference movement around the turn of the century with Scofield, Chafer, and Darby having the most influence. Most notably Scofield and his study Bible (for an interesting read, grab The Incredible Scofield and His Book).

DTS has influenced in at least a couple of ways. 1.) Men like Walvoord, Pentecost, Hendricks, and Ryrie have all had a great impact on the evangelical world...even more so than the average layperson would realize (since most would not even recognize those names). 2.) Also, if you look at virtually any major Christian univeristy, Bible college, or seminary, you will find DTS graduates teaching there. I don't believe you could say that about any other seminary. It's a testimony to the rigor of their ThM program and the competence of their graduates (especially in the languages). These are just off the top of my head! BTW, though I disagree with the eschatology of Walvoord, Pentecost, Hendricks, and Ryrie....I think they are all godly men who geniuses.

Is the influence bad?? I don't know that it is bad. The one thing that I see as a major problem is pretrib, premil, dispensationalists thinking that their views are the only orthodox Christian views. Give me a break!! It is insulting to those of us with more reformed views and also contributes to divisiveness in a subject area that tends to be more "sensitive" anyway.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that DTS has many more progressive dispensationalists now on the faculty than classic.

As Rhet would say....for what it's worth!!

-Matt

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Dallas Theological Seminary is The measuring Stick of quality in seminary education. Which major seminaries don't have DTS grads on thier staff (which they quickly & gladly point out). Where on this planet is there a better language study than DTS.
Poeple who ware pre-mil,pre-trib,and dispensational all recognize there are different points of view, we just don't agree with them.It is thier right to think and believe what they see as truth as it is ours to see our point of view.:godisgood:

 

[Paul33]

It would seem to me that once a person becomes a progressive dispensationalist, the only reason he retains a pre-trib rapture is because of the cultural pressure to do so. DTS' professors must be under heavy pressure to maintain a pre-trib rapture even though progressive dispensationalism would tend to lead one away from that view. If they were to change their view on the rapture, they would have to step down from their teaching position.

 

[UZThD]

IMO requiring profs to affirm a view on the Tribulation is an unnecessary condition of quality instruction.

 

[Bob Alkire]

IMO requiring profs to affirm a view on the Tribulation is an unnecessary condition of quality instruction.

Didn't Chafer start the school as Dispensational School? If I recall correctly he is what some would call today a 4 point Calcvinist but had profs who were not Calvinist at all, so end times teaching was up front with him, I would say.

When I was in Seminary I had a professor tell me the last person you want to run a school is a professor, because they always want to put their print on it and prove they were smarter than the one who came before. He said with educators, you will have change. Again he said for the most part educators don't want to start schools, most of the time it is preachers and local people.

I wouldn't want a profs who didn't believe the first 11 chapters of Genesis either. When I was started collage in the 50's many of the SBC collages were taken in profs who didn't agree with them. Look at the amount of those schools that have gone their own way.

By the way the seminary I went to does not teach the first 11 chapters of Genesis as fact today.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

SNIP Is the influence bad?? I don't know that it is bad. The one thing that I see as a major problem is pretrib, premil, dispensationalists thinking that their views are the only orthodox Christian views. Give me a break!! It is insulting to those of us with more reformed views and also contributes to divisiveness in a subject area that tends to be more "sensitive" anyway.


SNIP-Matt

As for insulting those of a more reformed POV, I think it's worth noting when DTS was founded Princeton Theo was still going strong. Later, Westminster took up the standard. There are other schools of a more Reformed POV (Calvin College comes to mind). DTS was founded as the mainline denominational schools were slipping into or were in apostasy.

 

[Paul33]

All of this is true.

But is it really necessary to require a pretrib rapture of the church to teach at a school that accepts progressive dispensationalism?

 

[LeBuick]

IMO requiring profs to affirm a view on the Tribulation is an unnecessary condition of quality instruction.

An institution without a common view can only graduate confusion. If the professor has a different view I think they should find a place when that view is accepted.

I use Chafer's Systematic Theology for one of my study classes. We take a volume each semester. I think it's a good basic outline and gives us a place to discuss the pro's and con's of his views. It's was what I used in the seminary and I think he did a fairly good job.

 

[UZThD]

An institution without a common view can only graduate confusion.

====

Then we must in haste remove the "translations" and "Study" fora from BB to protect our viewers' fragile minds :laugh: ,and, yes, all profs at DTS must immediately teach exactly the same, as less will not save the poor , susceptible, and so easily addled minds of those grad ThM and PhD students in Theology at DTS from falling into the wicked cracks of diabolical heresy. wooooo the danger is simply sooooo frightening:applause: :applause: . We must not under any circumstances allow our graduate students as they prepare to complete their theses and dissertations to actually think for themselves as thinking causes only confusion :BangHead:

 

[LeBuick]

An institution without a common view can only graduate confusion.

====

Then we must in haste remove the "translations" and "Study" fora from BB to protect our viewers' fragile minds :laugh: ,and, yes, all profs at DTS must immediately teach exactly the same, as less will not save the poor , susceptible, and so easily addled minds of those grad ThM and PhD students in Theology at DTS from falling into the wicked cracks of diabolical heresy. wooooo the danger is simply sooooo frightening:applause: :applause: . We must not under any circumstances allow our graduate students as they prepare to complete their theses and dissertations to actually think for themselves as thinking causes only confusion :BangHead:

I don’t know if this is sarcasm but imagine a Muslim or even Pentecostal teaching at a Baptist institution? What good could come of that?

 

[UZThD]

I don’t know if this is sarcasm but imagine a Muslim or even Pentecostal teaching at a Baptist institution? What good could come of that?

---

Are you comparing the difference between a Muslim and a Christian with between an evangelical posttribber and an evangelical pretribber?? Is THAT really a good comparison you think??

Here are examples of how , IMO, it should be:

1) HW House letting me teach Trinitarianism in seminary last year even though Wayne subscribes to the eternal essentiation and eternal relational subordination of the Son. I reject these, but House thought I would be fair enough and competent enough to give both views. House didn't think those seminarians would be hopelessly confused.

2) I taught doctrine to our adult SS class at Grace Baptist (Salem, Or) a full year. Our pastor, Ken Bass, is pretrib. I told Ken I'm undecided. He let me go ahead and teach on the TRib giving several views if I agreed to fairly give the rationale behind each. Ken didn't think these laymen would be hopelessly confused.

EG, do the verb and preposition (keep from) in Rev 3:10 require a removing?? I gave evidence for both views. Must the rapture be imminent? I gave the reasons in the literature for both views. The members of the class don't have to be dogmatic on the thing to be saved and growing in Christ!

3) I am not a cessationist ,but I don't talk in tongues. I also think that some assumed charismata is not genuine. But even though I am not wildly charismatic , the South African Seminary, which leans a bit more that way than I do, made me a grad supervisor. SATS doesn't think I will hopelessly confuse those grad students.

4) I just applied to teach at CES. Ric is Pentecostal ; I am Conservative Baptist. Ric doesn't mind as he does not think someone doing graduate theology must not be allowed to think..

5) 1966-68 did the MA in REligion, Point Loma Nazarene Univ...read every word Arminius wrote. Didn't hurt me a bit. Went through Western Seminary (ThM) which is pre trib. Most profs from DTS. Came out still unsure enough about eschatology to want to go on studying it with an open mind. An open mind is not necessarily confused...just undecided.

Was I sarcastic to you ? uh huh. Did your comment deserve it? uh huh!

 

[UZThD]

Le Buick

Sorry. I disagree w-you but I shouldn't have acted boorishly!

 

[LeBuick]

Le Buick

Sorry. I disagree w-you but I shouldn't have acted boorishly!

No problem, I take nothing here personal. I take it all all in the spirit of virtual fellowship. I used the extreme to set the stage and will answer your question YES.

Are you comparing the difference between a Muslim and a Christian with between an evangelical posttribber and an evangelical pretribber?? Is THAT really a good comparison you think??

Schools are designed for people that are learning and are less grounded in their belief. They are raw clay in the hands of the professor and should be treated as fragile. If we are not careful, A person at this stage can be made to an unbeliever saying, "they can't even agree regarding Jesus" or can become a Church leader who believes they can spit anything out they want because that's what they did at the school.

Schools need to be decent and in order just as a Church.

A school (particularly pre grad studies) should have A (singular) view and if you don't agree with that view then find a school with a view you agree with. The faculty should agree or at least be willing to teach the view of the school. If the view of the school is so far out of your willingness to teach then find another place to teach.

This is not a double standard, I think the same of the Church.

I would answer your question differently if you said a convention of Pastors but in the institution where we send our young in Christ, God forbid we expose them to confusion.

 

[Paul33]

What if that "singular" view is to allow diversity in the faculty with regard to secondary issues of doctrine (such as pretrib, midtrib, posttrib)?

 

[Martin]

Dallas Theological Seminary has affected all of American Evangelical Christianity. There is no way around that. Has their influence been good or bad? That is up for debate. I think of many fine teachers/preachers who have graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary. Men like John Walvoord, J. Vernon McGee, David Jerimiah, and many others. I think of Darrell Bock, a current professor at Dallas Seminary and a wonderful New Testament scholar. Therefore I would assert that Dallas Theological Seminary has had a positive influence on the Southern Baptist Convention and all of conservative evangelical Christianity in the United States (maybe around the world). However it has also had a negative influence. I think of men like Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin who have also graduated from Dallas Seminary. Hodges taught at Dallas for many years and even wrote large sections of the school's commentary on the New Testament (The Bible Knowledge Commentary). Since I believe Hodges is a heretic who preaches a false gospel, his close association with Dallas Seminary is a problem with me. His teachings have infected the Southern Baptist Convention. Look at all the preachers who, in one way or the other, have followed some of Hodges' false teachings. Zane Hodges is the leader of the modern antinomian, easy believism movement. In my opinion many people will end up in hell because of his false teachings.

So my opinion of the influence of Dallas Seminary on the Southern Baptist Convention is mixed.

I also think they charge way too much for tuition, but that is just me...:laugh:

 

[LeBuick]

What if that "singular" view is to allow diversity in the faculty with regard to secondary issues of doctrine (such as pretrib, midtrib, posttrib)?

Then it would be acceptable at that institution and I would hope they have a mechanism in place to safe guard the young in Christ. Ex. each of those can be taught as a subject without the professors "attacking" the opposing views.

 

[UZThD]

Le Buick

Thanks for your charity. I still disagree that at a graduate school all professors must agree. Perhaps in the undergrad level it would make more sense to me.

 

[LeBuick]

Le Buick

Thanks for your charity. I still disagree that at a graduate school all professors must agree. Perhaps in the undergrad level it would make more sense to me.

Graduate I do agree, to be an expert (Masters or Doctors) in any field one should be exposed to all sides.

I had a Doctor once tell me to make the prayer short because they needed get them into the OR. My what they didn't teach him in medical school...

 

[Maestroh]

From A Current DTS Student

This thread caught my eye, so let me illumine you as one who is almost halfway done with his Th.M.

1) Progressive dispensationalism is allowed. In a sense, Bock and Blaising argue for it. Bock is still on staff so obviously one does not have to be a traditional premil disp. to work on staff.

2) I would point out that the vast majority of modern DTS professors REJECT the teachings of Hodges, Ryrie, and Wilkin in regards to the lordship salvation issue. Most, however, are loathe to be associated with John MacArthur so they develop an intermediary position so they can claim they are 'closer' to Mac but not in the same camp.

3) In regards to their influence on the SBC....DTS is a more 'Baptist' institution than anything else. Consider the Presidents of the seminary:

Chafer - Presbyterian
Walvoord - Anglican
Campbell - Baptist (still around on campus)
Swindoll - Evangelical Free
Bailey - Baptist (graduate of Western Baptist Cons. Seminary)

Some of my own profs are interesting:

Lanier Burns - Presbyterian
Joe Fantin - raised Roman Catholic but now nondenom.
Dan Wallace - Northern Baptist


Incidentally, there's an online debate somewhere between Bock and Wilkin over the lordship salvation issue. Bock is 'soft lordship' (opposed to Mac who is said to be 'hard lordship').

Wilkin is theological no man's land.