Dan and All Israel

[J.D.]

Dan is not included in the twelve tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7. Some commentators have said that Dan fell into idolatry and is therefore not included in the 144 thousand.

Question: How can "all Israel" be saved (Rom 11) if Dan is not included?

 

[canadyjd]

Dan is not included in the twelve tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7. Some commentators have said that Dan fell into idolatry and is therefore not included in the 144 thousand.

Question: How can "all Israel" be saved (Rom 11) if Dan is not included?

Because "all Israel" from Rom 11 is referring to the "children of the promise" (Rom 9) not children of the flesh.

The children of the promise are comprised of believing Jew and Gentile, chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world to be granted grace and brought to salvation by the power of God and transformed into one new man in Christ Jesus.

BTW, the 144,000 is a symbolic number and not to be taken literally.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

Because "all Israel" from Rom 11 is referring to the "children of the promise" (Rom 9) not children of the flesh.

The children of the promise are comprised of believing Jew and Gentile, chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world to be granted grace and brought to salvation by the power of God and transformed into one new man in Christ Jesus.

BTW, the 144,000 is a symbolic number and not to be taken literally.

peace to youraying:

Thank you. I wonder how those who take the 144K literally would explain it.

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you. I wonder how those who take the 144K literally would explain it.

I knew that.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

[DrRandyGrace]

I believe that the 144,000 is a literal number. I also have no problem with the fact that they are not listed in Rev. 7, yet all of Israel will be saved. One does not preclude the other.

 

[OldRegular]

Because "all Israel" from Rom 11 is referring to the "children of the promise" (Rom 9) not children of the flesh.

The children of the promise are comprised of believing Jew and Gentile, chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world to be granted grace and brought to salvation by the power of God and transformed into one new man in Christ Jesus.

BTW, the 144,000 is a symbolic number and not to be taken literally.

peace to youraying:

You hit the nail [metaphorically:laugh: ] on the head!:thumbsup:

 

[Me4Him]

Dan is not included in the twelve tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7. Some commentators have said that Dan fell into idolatry and is therefore not included in the 144 thousand.

Question: How can "all Israel" be saved (Rom 11) if Dan is not included?

Dan is believed by many to be the tribe from which the "Son of predition" originates, the reason he is left out.

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Manasseh replaces Dan in Rev, Ephraim is represented as the church, both "sons of Joseph", which prefigured Jesus,

BTW, Ephraim isn't one of the tribes in Rev.

 

[webdog]

Dan is not included in the twelve tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7. Some commentators have said that Dan fell into idolatry and is therefore not included in the 144 thousand.

Question: How can "all Israel" be saved (Rom 11) if Dan is not included?

Are only those 12 listed considered "all" Israel? I thought they represented the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Marcia]

Dan is believed by many to be the tribe from which the "Son of predition" originates, the reason he is left out.

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Manasseh replaces Dan in Rev, Ephraim is represented as the church, both "sons of Joseph", which prefigured Jesus,

.

This imagery about the serpent is not necessarily negative. This is from a paper I wrote for my OT1 course in seminary on the imagery of the serpent in Egypt and the OT:

"When Jacob blesses his children before his death in Genesis, chapter 49, part of his blessing to Dan in verse 17 is: "May Dan be a snake beside the road, a viper by the path, that bites the heels of the horse so that its rider falls backward," (NET Bible). The generic term for serpent, nahash, is used here. Although Dan later becomes a tribe that worships false gods in Judges 18, and though King Jeroboam of Israel in 1 Kings, chapter 12, places golden calves for worship in the city of Dan, most commentators believe that the serpent image in this passage is positive since this is a blessing. Dan, though a small tribe, will be as shrewd as a serpent, able to bite its enemies' heels so that they are defeated.69 Bible commentator Leupold proposes as well that the serpent imagery is almost neutral, a tribal trait that could be used for good or for bad, and was an oblique warning about Dan's potential for treachery."

http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Serpents3.html

 

[J.D.]

Are only those 12 listed considered "all" Israel? I thought they represented the 12 tribes of Israel.

I was just about to say that you made a good point, but then I noticed this in the passage:

"of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7:4).

 

[J.D.]

I believe that the 144,000 is a literal number. I also have no problem with the fact that they are not listed in Rev. 7, yet all of Israel will be saved. One does not preclude the other.

What is your opinion of the word "sealed" in Rev 7? What does it mean?

 

[Me4Him]

This imagery about the serpent is not necessarily negative. This is from a paper I wrote for my OT1 course in seminary on the imagery of the serpent in Egypt and the OT:


http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Serpents3.html

most commentators believe that the serpent image in this passage is positive since this is a blessing. Dan, though a small tribe, will be as shrewd as a serpent,

Da 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.


I've never really dug into the tribe of Dan to learn much about it, but what little I've heard seen to match up with what little I know.


Moses casting his rod down and it turning into a serpent, prefigure/foreshadows,

God casting his rod down and it turning into a Serpent. (Trib)

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, (AC/SATAN) and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power (Staff) was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

God's "Rod/Staff" to the church are "Comfort" (er)

Ps 23:4 thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

But to Israel, they are "Tribulations".

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC next) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

 

[webdog]

I was just about to say that you made a good point, but then I noticed this in the passage:

"of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7:4).

That can still be taken as all the tribes, with none of the tribes being left out. I still don't think that is all of Israel, but all tribes being listed.