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Daniel 9, Coming of Messiah
- Thread starter antiaging
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
It has clearly and repeatedly been shown that the Bible does no such thing.
Daniel 9 clearly talks about the 70 weeks showing events that take place at various points of the timeline.
Giving no one ANY excuse at all for slicing up the 490 year timeline and inserting vast undefined 1000 year gaps into it.
1. 6 weeks (49 literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
2. 63 weeks(441 literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
3. 1 week (7 Literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
starts with Messiah Annointed - AD 27 -- Baptism
3.5 years -- Messiah cut off
These distinct events are mentioned as milestones in the single contiguous timeline -- and for none of these events may we gratuitously insert 1000's of years gap of undefined time here simply because pre-trib-ratpure theories demand it.
In fact no such abuse of numeric timelines could be done to ANY timeline in the Bible or outside the bible and have the numeric value still remain --
In ALL case with a numeric timeline - given the start date you always know the end point.
Obviously.
No breaks at ALL are given in Dan 9 giving anyone an excuse to insert 1000's of years gap of undefined time into the timeline!
in Christ,
Bob
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
John Darby's commentary said:
John Nelson Darby is accused of singlehandly starting
the 'rapture' doctrine, the neo-dispensationalism
in 1828. Even 30 years later when he wrote his
Bible comentary above he didn't have exactly the same ideas
that later Scofield had. Sorry, but as we study the Bible
more and more informations is available, there is more
knowledge about God's written world.
Schofield was a student of John Nelson Darby.
My Baptist Mentor was a student of Schofield.
I was a student of my Mentors
{including also a SDA pastor and a WCG /worldwide
church of God ( Herb Armstrong) correspondence course/ } .
I have a better idea than they do.
Maybe I need to pass my info on to others?
Here is one of the things Schofield
(written in 1909, 1917) says in Dan 9:
Schofield about Daniel 9 said:
Ed Edwards said:
You are wrong. If you pull that 0 out of the top timeline, it causes the 1A to move one to the left, and the 1B to move one to the right. So you lose two years in the total time line. [You are pulling out a 0 mark on the time line, not a 0 year.]
Look closely at your bottom time line. Your 1B, is extending over a two year period, going from 2B to 1A. Remember the numbers are counting backwards to the left for the BC numbers. Your 1B year is used up, going over to 2B. So you have an extra space of one extra year going from 1B, to 1A. [1A is used up going from 1 to 2A.] On your line, Dec. 31 1B is one year before Jan. 1 1A.
I understand positive and negative numbers in Algebra. These websites that say if you remove the 0, you are removing a zero year are wrong. You are removing the mark for a 0 quantity on the time line. That causes both 1A and 1B to move toward each other and you lose the space equivalent of 2 years on the timeline.
4B 3B 2B 1 2A 3A 4A On that timeline that I have. You use up one year space from 1 to 2B, and one year space from 1 to 2A.
Dec. 31, 1B, is right next to Jan. 1, 1A on the timeline, separated only by one day. That is the way that it is on the calendar. [There must be only one mark on the time line for 1BC, and 1AD, if they are only separated by a day.] Pulling out the zero mark runs them together.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
//Your 1B, is extending over a two year period, going from 2B to 1A. //
Sorry, that is a formatting error, not a years error.
Here, is some stuff where years can be compared.
(the comparable stuff is on the same line
/-- with 0 year
/---------/----- without 0 year
/---------/---------/---- the AA method
/---------/---------/
4BC --- 4BC --- 4BC
3BC --- 3BC ---3BC
2BC --- 2BC --- 2BC
1BC --- 1BC --- AD1BC
-0- --- AD1 --- AD2
AD1 --- AD2 --- AD3
AD2 --- AD3 --- AD4
AD3 --- AD4 ----AD5
AD4 --- AD5 --- AD6
with 0 year shifts 0
no 0 yerars shifts 1 -- this is correct
AA's methoid shifts 2
// [You are pulling out a 0 mark on the time line, not a 0 year.] //
I'm doing it right.
I'm a retired computer professional engineer.
I know how to count with zero in and
without zero.
Honeywell numbers bits (old eight bit computer)
012345678 - '8' bit is the most significant figure
IBM numbered their bits (old 16 bit computer)
FEDCBA9876543210 -'0' bit is the most significant
(/which makes way more sense as the bit#
is the power of two of the bit
x to the 0 power = 1, if X is a counting number
and not equal to zero. Needless to say, the
IBM compatable computer came to be the
standard for the industry./)
Tandy numbered their bits (old eight bit computer)
123456789 - '9' bit is the most significant computer
Anybody ever program a computer with
'1's & '0's?
(it is slow. I love high order languages
over assembler languages over '1's & '0's.
What was the bit order over at Apple? It is the
only think I never messed with
BTW, 01 Jan AD0001 is one year after 01 Jan 0001BC
AD0001 runs from 01 Jan AD0001 to 31 Dec AD0001
0001BC runs from 01 Jan 0001BC to 31 Dec 0001BC
01 Jan AD0001 is the day after 31 Dec 0001BC
If there was a year zero (and some systems there are) it would:
start on 01 Jan 0000 (the day after 31 Dec 0001BC)
and end 31 Dec 0000 (the day before 01 Jan AD0001).
Sorry, that is a formatting error, not a years error.
Here, is some stuff where years can be compared.
(the comparable stuff is on the same line
/-- with 0 year
/---------/----- without 0 year
/---------/---------/---- the AA method
/---------/---------/
4BC --- 4BC --- 4BC
3BC --- 3BC ---3BC
2BC --- 2BC --- 2BC
1BC --- 1BC --- AD1BC
-0- --- AD1 --- AD2
AD1 --- AD2 --- AD3
AD2 --- AD3 --- AD4
AD3 --- AD4 ----AD5
AD4 --- AD5 --- AD6
with 0 year shifts 0
no 0 yerars shifts 1 -- this is correct
AA's methoid shifts 2
// [You are pulling out a 0 mark on the time line, not a 0 year.] //
I'm doing it right.
I'm a retired computer professional engineer.
I know how to count with zero in and
without zero.
Honeywell numbers bits (old eight bit computer)
012345678 - '8' bit is the most significant figure
IBM numbered their bits (old 16 bit computer)
FEDCBA9876543210 -'0' bit is the most significant
(/which makes way more sense as the bit#
is the power of two of the bit
x to the 0 power = 1, if X is a counting number
and not equal to zero. Needless to say, the
IBM compatable computer came to be the
standard for the industry./)
Tandy numbered their bits (old eight bit computer)
123456789 - '9' bit is the most significant computer
Anybody ever program a computer with
'1's & '0's?
(it is slow. I love high order languages
over assembler languages over '1's & '0's.
What was the bit order over at Apple? It is the
only think I never messed with
BTW, 01 Jan AD0001 is one year after 01 Jan 0001BC
AD0001 runs from 01 Jan AD0001 to 31 Dec AD0001
0001BC runs from 01 Jan 0001BC to 31 Dec 0001BC
01 Jan AD0001 is the day after 31 Dec 0001BC
If there was a year zero (and some systems there are) it would:
start on 01 Jan 0000 (the day after 31 Dec 0001BC)
and end 31 Dec 0000 (the day before 01 Jan AD0001).
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
John Gill – author of the first Baptist Bible Commentary
John Gill’s commentary on Dan 9:25
it is best therefore to interpret this of a royal edict, the order or commandment of a king of Persia to rebuild Jerusalem; and it seems correct to reckon the number given, either from the seventh, or rather from the twentieth, of Artaxerxes Longimanus before mentioned; and either these reckonings, as Bishop Chandler F3 observes, are sufficient for our purpose, to show the completion of the prophecy in Christ:
``the commencement of the weeks (as he remarks) must be either from the seventh of Artaxerxes, which falls on 457 B.C. or from the twentieth of Artaxerxes; (add to 457 B.C., twenty six years after Christ, which is the number that four hundred and eighty three years, or sixty nine weeks, exceeds four hundred and fifty seven years); and you are brought to the beginning of John the Baptist's preaching up the advent of the Messiah; add seven years or one week to the former, and you come to the thirty third year of A.D. which was the year of Jesus Christ's death[/b]
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009&verse=025
John Gill’s commentary on Dan 9:25
it is best therefore to interpret this of a royal edict, the order or commandment of a king of Persia to rebuild Jerusalem; and it seems correct to reckon the number given, either from the seventh, or rather from the twentieth, of Artaxerxes Longimanus before mentioned; and either these reckonings, as Bishop Chandler F3 observes, are sufficient for our purpose, to show the completion of the prophecy in Christ:
``the commencement of the weeks (as he remarks) must be either from the seventh of Artaxerxes, which falls on 457 B.C. or from the twentieth of Artaxerxes; (add to 457 B.C., twenty six years after Christ, which is the number that four hundred and eighty three years, or sixty nine weeks, exceeds four hundred and fifty seven years); and you are brought to the beginning of John the Baptist's preaching up the advent of the Messiah; add seven years or one week to the former, and you come to the thirty third year of A.D. which was the year of Jesus Christ's death[/b]
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009&verse=025
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As John Gill points out above - and as has been pointed out here -- the Bible gives no one an excuse to slice and dice the 490 year timeline into disconnected pieces with 1000's of years of undefined time segments "inserted" just to facilitate Pre-trib notions.
Daniel 9 clearly talks about the 70 weeks showing events that take place at various points of the timeline.
Giving no one ANY excuse at all for slicing up the 490 year timeline and inserting vast undefined 1000 year gaps into it.
1. 457 BC - starts 90 years. First 6 weeks (49 literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
2. 63 weeks(441 literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
3. AD 27 -- 1 week (7 Literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
starts with Messiah Annointed - AD 27 -- Baptism
3.5 years -- Messiah cut off
7 years of the last week ends -- around 34 AD.
Stephen Stoned - Gospel begins to go to Gentiles.
As John Gill and I have pointed out 1BC followed by 1AD - giving us 490 years from 457BC to 34 AD.
Daniel 9 clearly talks about the 70 weeks showing events that take place at various points of the timeline.
Giving no one ANY excuse at all for slicing up the 490 year timeline and inserting vast undefined 1000 year gaps into it.
1. 457 BC - starts 90 years. First 6 weeks (49 literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
2. 63 weeks(441 literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
3. AD 27 -- 1 week (7 Literal years)
<insert no 1000's of years gap of undefined time here>
starts with Messiah Annointed - AD 27 -- Baptism
3.5 years -- Messiah cut off
7 years of the last week ends -- around 34 AD.
Stephen Stoned - Gospel begins to go to Gentiles.
As John Gill and I have pointed out 1BC followed by 1AD - giving us 490 years from 457BC to 34 AD.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
In PROPHECY IN THE NEWS, Dec 2007, magazine,
in an article // The Mystery of the Seventy "weeks" //
the authur: J.R.Church puts a 77 year 'gap' in
between the first group 'weeks' 1-7 (7 'weeks' long)
and the second group of 'weeks' 8-69 (62 'weeks' long).
Daniel 9 does mention a gorup of 7 'weeks' long
followed by a time of 62 'weeks'
(earlier I mentioned 6 & 63 which is in error,
it is 7 & 62 - Daniel 9:25)
page 35 of PROPHECY IN THE NEWS, Dec 2007:
// There is a gap of 77 years between the seventh
and eighth weeks. The counting of the sixty-two weeks
was resumed in 408/407BC, the 21st Jubilee Year.
During the time of this gap, in 464BC, Artaxerxes
(son of Xerxes) ascended the Persian throne, He sent Ezra
with furnishings for the Temple in 457BC
and in 445 BC sent Nehemiah to rebuild the
walls and Gates. ... These were the 'troublous times'
mentioned by Gabriel in Daniel 9:25. //
I haven't had time to check to see if this makes
much sense. There is some reason that
the mention is made of a 7-"week" period
followed by a 62-"week" period.
I note that the 70 years mentioned by Jeremiah
is NOT divided into parts.
I note that the 1,000 years mentioned in
Revealtion 20 is NOT divide into parats.
But the 70 "weeks" time of Daniel 9
IS DIVIDED INTO PARTS.
Recall that the two half-weeks of the
70th week are mentioned seven times in
the scripture. I'll republish that post later.
in an article // The Mystery of the Seventy "weeks" //
the authur: J.R.Church puts a 77 year 'gap' in
between the first group 'weeks' 1-7 (7 'weeks' long)
and the second group of 'weeks' 8-69 (62 'weeks' long).
Daniel 9 does mention a gorup of 7 'weeks' long
followed by a time of 62 'weeks'
(earlier I mentioned 6 & 63 which is in error,
it is 7 & 62 - Daniel 9:25)
page 35 of PROPHECY IN THE NEWS, Dec 2007:
// There is a gap of 77 years between the seventh
and eighth weeks. The counting of the sixty-two weeks
was resumed in 408/407BC, the 21st Jubilee Year.
During the time of this gap, in 464BC, Artaxerxes
(son of Xerxes) ascended the Persian throne, He sent Ezra
with furnishings for the Temple in 457BC
and in 445 BC sent Nehemiah to rebuild the
walls and Gates. ... These were the 'troublous times'
mentioned by Gabriel in Daniel 9:25. //
I haven't had time to check to see if this makes
much sense. There is some reason that
the mention is made of a 7-"week" period
followed by a 62-"week" period.
I note that the 70 years mentioned by Jeremiah
is NOT divided into parts.
I note that the 1,000 years mentioned in
Revealtion 20 is NOT divide into parats.
But the 70 "weeks" time of Daniel 9
IS DIVIDED INTO PARTS.
Recall that the two half-weeks of the
70th week are mentioned seven times in
the scripture. I'll republish that post later.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
Hint - none of them are divided - but the 490 year timeline has milestone events that are associated with points ALONG that contiguous intact numeric Bible timeline.
Slicing up timelines is not a good way to preserve them -- even if it is just done for the sake of trying to rescude the Pre-trib rapture theory.
This is a case where John Gill -- author of the first baptist Bible commentary was spot on.
in Christ,
Bob
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
half weeks of 70th week 1of2
While this (note on another venue)
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
(Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.
Dan 9:27 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:
All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:
Dan 7:25 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Dan 12:7 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that
it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Rev 11:1-3 [two references from KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.
The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days
Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are
suggested
Rev 11:2 [KJV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.
The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.
Rev 12:6 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two
hundred, and threescore dayes.
The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.
Rev 12:14 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might
flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time,
and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.
God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.
Rev 13:5 KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and
blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.
This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.
So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each
3½-year-periods from Daniel 9:27.
1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in
--- Jerusalem/ is built)
2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.
To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
(each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
into contradictions with different prophecies.
Severl have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
not five? To which I still say: no reason
to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
two times.
One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).
While this (note on another venue)
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
(Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.
Dan 9:27 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:
All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:
Dan 7:25 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Dan 12:7 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that
it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Rev 11:1-3 [two references from KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.
The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days
Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are
suggested
Rev 11:2 [KJV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.
The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.
Rev 12:6 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two
hundred, and threescore dayes.
The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.
Rev 12:14 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might
flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time,
and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.
God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.
Rev 13:5 KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and
blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.
This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.
So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each
3½-year-periods from Daniel 9:27.
1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in
--- Jerusalem/ is built)
2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.
To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
(each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
into contradictions with different prophecies.
Severl have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
not five? To which I still say: no reason
to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
two times.
One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is incredibly easy.
The 1260 years seen in Dan 7 AND in Rev 11 AND in Rev 12 AND in Rev 13 are all the SAME
The 42 months (1260 days -- 1260 literal years)
1260 prophetic days (1260 Literal years)
3.5 years (times time .5Time) -- (1260 literal years)
Are all the same thing.
The Dark Ages!
in Christ,
Bob
The 1260 years seen in Dan 7 AND in Rev 11 AND in Rev 12 AND in Rev 13 are all the SAME
The 42 months (1260 days -- 1260 literal years)
1260 prophetic days (1260 Literal years)
3.5 years (times time .5Time) -- (1260 literal years)
Are all the same thing.
The Dark Ages!
in Christ,
Bob
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
While this (note on another venue)
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
References: (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.
Dan 9:27 [reference #2 from KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:
All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:
Dan 7:25 [reference #1 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Dan 12:7 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that
it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Rev 11:1-3 [references #4 and #5 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.
The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days
Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are
suggested
Rev 11:2 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.
The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.
Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two
hundred, and threescore dayes.
The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.
Rev 12:14 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might
flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time,
and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.
God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.
Rev 13:5 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and
blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.
This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.
So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each
3½-year-periods
In Daniel 9:27.
1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in
--- Jerusalem/ is built)
2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.
To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
(each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
into contradictions with different prophecies.
Severl have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
not five? To which I still say: no reason
to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
two times.
One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
References: (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.
Dan 9:27 [reference #2 from KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:
All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:
Dan 7:25 [reference #1 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Dan 12:7 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that
it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Rev 11:1-3 [references #4 and #5 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.
The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days
Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are
suggested
Rev 11:2 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.
The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.
Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two
hundred, and threescore dayes.
The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.
Rev 12:14 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might
flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time,
and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.
God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.
Rev 13:5 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and
blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.
This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.
So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each
3½-year-periods
In Daniel 9:27.
1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in
--- Jerusalem/ is built)
2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.
To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
(each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
into contradictions with different prophecies.
Severl have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
not five? To which I still say: no reason
to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
two times.
One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
Agreed - some of what you say is actually correct. Those 1260 prophetic days ALL refer to the same literal 1260 year timeline as we see in both Dan 7 and Rev 12 the time AFTER the Roman Empire and AFTER the ascension of Christ - when the Christian church was being persecuted ... The Dark Ages.
And of course - this 1260 year timeline in the Dark Ages following the time of pagan Rome - has nothing at all to do with the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 that starts in 457 BC and goes to 34 AD -- (yep that would be 490 real years)
in Christ,
Bob
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Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
BobRyan said:
When did the 'Dark Ages' start?
When did the 'Dark Ages' end?
The Dark Ages just didn't last 1260 years.
the idea that all these 3½ year periods
in Revelation are the Dark Ages
and in Daniel are about the First Advent
conflict with these:
1. The woman protected in the wilderness is Yisrael.
2. Jesus ministry was NOT 3½ years but was likely only 2 years long.
3. Daniel mentions TWO 3½-year periods IN ONE SCRIPTURE in Daniel 9.
4. The Antichrist has to have a temple to go into to
commit the EVIL ACT: the Abomination of Desolation (AoD)
5. The Antichrist is a person, not a
6. if these Revelation periods of 3½-years
are the dark ages, then they done happened and
the truth has to be preterist NOT futuristic, pre-mill
and post-trib only - as some claim.
(this is just off the top of my head, not exhaustive).
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hint: They end in 1798 when the Pope was taken captive -- and died in captivity.
In any case this is a 1260 year period of time - persecution of the saints - according to Rev 12 and Dan 7.
It has nothing at all to do with the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 that starts in 457 AD (as even John Gill would allow it) and ends in 34 AD.
in Christ,
Bob
In any case this is a 1260 year period of time - persecution of the saints - according to Rev 12 and Dan 7.
It has nothing at all to do with the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 that starts in 457 AD (as even John Gill would allow it) and ends in 34 AD.
in Christ,
Bob
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Speaking of 1260 prophecies:
//It has nothing at all to do with the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 ... //
I find it strange that Daniel 9 mentions
one 'seven' seperate from the other 69 'sevens'
which we call Daniel's 70th Week ('seven').
Further something that happens in the
middle of the week is mentioned --
strong implication there of ½ of '7 years'
which is 3½-years, with 360 days years
that is exactlly 1260 days.
Unfortunately, Brother BobRyan,
nothing exciting or interesting happened
in 1798 nor 1798-1260=AD0538.
The best yarn I've heard is that
in 1948 the UN made Israel a nation
again. 1948-1260=AD0688.
About AD0688 the Great Dome of the Rock (DoR)
was being built on the Temple Mount in
Jerusalem by the Muslims. If they were smart
money makers, they dedicated part of it
every year -- always good for some rich shiek
to get his name written down in on Allah's list.
So surely in AD0688 the DoR (since we need
that date) was 'dedicated'.
Sorry Bud, timelines need points at the
beginning and end (well, except a timeline
that starts somewhere and goes on 'forever'
-- that just needs a start point).
//It has nothing at all to do with the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 ... //
I find it strange that Daniel 9 mentions
one 'seven' seperate from the other 69 'sevens'
which we call Daniel's 70th Week ('seven').
Further something that happens in the
middle of the week is mentioned --
strong implication there of ½ of '7 years'
which is 3½-years, with 360 days years
that is exactlly 1260 days.
Unfortunately, Brother BobRyan,
nothing exciting or interesting happened
in 1798 nor 1798-1260=AD0538.
The best yarn I've heard is that
in 1948 the UN made Israel a nation
again. 1948-1260=AD0688.
About AD0688 the Great Dome of the Rock (DoR)
was being built on the Temple Mount in
Jerusalem by the Muslims. If they were smart
money makers, they dedicated part of it
every year -- always good for some rich shiek
to get his name written down in on Allah's list.
So surely in AD0688 the DoR (since we need
that date) was 'dedicated'.
Sorry Bud, timelines need points at the
beginning and end (well, except a timeline
that starts somewhere and goes on 'forever'
-- that just needs a start point).
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Numeric Timelines are like rulers - given a starting point (Jeremiahs 70 years mentioned in Dan 9) the property of BEING a timeline allows Daniel to SEE when it will end!
This is so blatantly obvious it is left as an exercise for the reader to discover that there is no single case where this is not true.
In Christ
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
And of course - they obvisously have nothing at all to do with the 490 year timeline that starts in 457 BC (yup that is 490 years -- no year-zero) and ends in 34 AD with the LAST 7 years starting with the baptism of Christ - - having the Messiah "cut off" in the midst of that week and having the Gospel going to the gentiles after the stoning of Stephen at the END of that timeline.
in Christ,
Bob