How about what the inspired scriptures teach?
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Daniel & The Revelation [KJB] - structural Foundation - Ps. 77:13 KJB
- Thread starter One Baptism
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One Baptism
Active Member
Brother, I verily began with the texts of scripture [KJB] even from the beginning OP. Did you read that linked study?
What specific text, or texts, are you thinking of, that would indicate to you, that the texts cited, of Revelation 12 are future?
Dragon is satan, woman is Israel, and the great tribulation has not hit yet!
One Baptism
Active Member
Let us start with this, study prayerfully that we may come to agreement on the symbol of the "Dragon", as given in Revelation 12.
The symbol of "Dragon" (given as a sign; "a great wonder" in Heaven), has several identifications:
[1]. "the great dragon" (vs 9) is identified as, "that old serpent", "called the Devil", "and Satan", "which deceiveth", whom has "angels", whom all were cast out of Heaven. Thus same "serpent" is seen in Genesis 3:1,2,4,13,14; seen again in Isaiah 27:1; 2 Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 20:2 KJB.
However, in Genesis (book of seeds, beginnings, alpha) he (Satan/serpent) has one head, but by the time of Revelation (the book of the fullness of the tree, completion, omega), he has "seven heads", showing the increase and the perfecting (7) of the character of the mystery of iniquity, the tree of evil (having root (Satan) and branches (wicked angels & people), Malachi 4:1 KJB) in counterfeit (he counterfeits everything of God; of the 7 branch candlestick in the Holy Sanctuary, representative of the Holy Spirit, see Revelation 1:4, 4:5, 22:17 KJB) hath also 7 branches, Satan (the unclean spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience) the central stock, and the 6 other side branches, the number of fallen man (this being wicked, sinfilled man).
[2.] "a great red dragon" (vs 3), "having seven heads and ten horns", "and seven crowns upon his heads", "tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth", and "stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." (vss 3,4) is identified as that state power, Pagan Rome, which was the very 'beast' (a dragon is an unclean reptile) that, through the client-king (of Rome) Herod, tried to destroy Jesus as soon as He was born (Matthew 2:16 KJB). This same 'beast' (fourth beast) is also seen in Daniel 7 KJB, the "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly", having "great iron teeth", "nails of brass" (Daniel 7:19 KJB) and having "ten horns" (Daniel 7:7,20 KJB). The seven heads would come from the cumulative counting of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7, Lion; Babylon (1 head), Bear; Medo-Persia (1 head); Leopard; Greece (4 heads), dreadful & terrible beast; Pagan Rome (1 head) =7 heads, thus Pagan Rome would be the 7th head in Daniel 7, and Revelation 12, shows the progression of the time, Daniel looking forward, and John looking at past, present and yet future (was, is and is to come). This same state power of Pagan Rome is identified also in Daniel 8 & 11 in parts. A crushing, persecuting power.
[3.] The "dragon" also represents apostasy (false Christianity clothed outwardly as lamb, inwardly a dragon, a ravening wolf, roaring lion; Revelation 13:11 KJB), and the worldling (as Pharaoh of Egypt, using sorcery, even called the piercing serpent that Leviathan/Rahab; Psalms 91:13; Isaiah 27:1, 51:9; Ezekiel 29:3) and spiritism or spiritualism in its 3 (yea, even 4) manifestations (Revelation 16:13 KJB), the teachings, sayings, doings and practices of the occultic, people who having become the habitation of dragons, see Isaiah 34:13, 35:7 KJB (natural and spiritual), they will do and boast of "miracles" (Revelation 13:14, 16:14, 19:20 KJB)
Revelation 12 begins with the Devil (Satan) working behind the scenes in the iron kingdom of Pagan Rome.
Do you agree, or disagree?
If disagree, please be specific, citing scripture please, thank you.
One Baptism
Active Member
Let's consider what the books of Daniel and Revelation are about:
brother John saw something absolutely essential to understand. He saw "the Son of man", Jesus Himself, "in the midst of seven [golden] candlesticks". What does this mean, what are the "seven [golden] candlesticks"? We are told the revelation of the mystery of them:
Think for a minute, prayerfully. Jesus is in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, and the seven golden candlesticks are the seven churches of Revelation. What is the fullness of the church, then?
Since the church is the wife of Christ Jesus, even His "body", and Revelation says that Christ Jesus is in the "midst of" the seven churches, the very body, of which we are to be parts of, do any not recognize the plan of redemption, the very purpose of the everlasting Gospel?
Those who read Revelation, or any part of the Bible, and do not consider that its very purpose is to have Christ Jesus in them, to give them victory over every temptation, over every besetting sin, open or secret, over every fault, over ever bad habit, in action, speech or thought, have not even realized the very first principle, having missed the very Foundation, having not understood the VERY LOVE OF GOD, IN CHRIST JESUS, in giving Him unto us. Those who teach symbols, and history and prophecy, if they do not teach victory over every sin, every transgression of God's Law of love [Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 20:6; John 14:15 KJ, which includes the Fourth Commandment, Exodus 20:8-11 KJB], know as yet nothing of God's purpose, nor will, but are filled with unsaving knowledge, however intelligent they may be [2 Peter 1:19 KJB]
Read the message to every one of the seven churches:
As it is written:
Righteousness [right-doing] by Faith, now, who LORD believes our report?
We can walk, even to-day, by the Holy Spirit, even as Jesus walked, in the likeness of sinful flesh, without sin, because of the redemption plan of God's love in Christ Jesus.
Let us stop doubting and believe His Word.
Revelation 1:1 KJB - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 1:2 KJB - Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Revelation 1:3 KJB - Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
As it is written:Revelation 1:2 KJB - Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Revelation 1:3 KJB - Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
"... The central theme of the Bible, the theme about which every other in the whole book clusters, is the redemption plan, the restoration in the human soul of the image of God. From the first intimation of hope in the sentence pronounced in Eden to that last glorious promise of the Revelation, “They shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads” (Revelation 22:4), the burden of every book and every passage of the Bible is the unfolding of this wondrous theme,—man's uplifting,—the power of [page 125-126] God, “which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15:57.
He who grasps this thought has before him an infinite field for study. He has the key that will unlock to him the whole treasure house of God's word.
The science of redemption is the science of all sciences; the science that is the study of the angels and of all the intelligences of the unfallen worlds; the science that engages the attention of our Lord and Saviour; the science that enters into the purpose brooded in the mind of the Infinite—“kept in silence through times eternal” (Romans 16:25, R.V.); the science that will be the study of God's redeemed throughout endless ages. This is the highest study in which it is possible for man to engage. As no other study can, it will quicken the mind and uplift the soul. ..." - Education, E.G. White, pages 125-126.
brother John, What did you see on the 7th Day, the Holy Sabbath Day of the Lord thy God?He who grasps this thought has before him an infinite field for study. He has the key that will unlock to him the whole treasure house of God's word.
The science of redemption is the science of all sciences; the science that is the study of the angels and of all the intelligences of the unfallen worlds; the science that engages the attention of our Lord and Saviour; the science that enters into the purpose brooded in the mind of the Infinite—“kept in silence through times eternal” (Romans 16:25, R.V.); the science that will be the study of God's redeemed throughout endless ages. This is the highest study in which it is possible for man to engage. As no other study can, it will quicken the mind and uplift the soul. ..." - Education, E.G. White, pages 125-126.
Revelation 1:9 KJB - I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:10 KJB - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation 1:11 KJB - Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 1:12 KJB - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation 1:13 KJB - And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
brother John saw something absolutely essential to understand. He saw "the Son of man", Jesus Himself, "in the midst of seven [golden] candlesticks". What does this mean, what are the "seven [golden] candlesticks"? We are told the revelation of the mystery of them:
Revelation 1:20 KJB - The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
The symbol, the mystery, is clearly revealed, clearly identified and defined. Yet, most people stop there and proceed no further, never considering to dig deep and search prayerfully for what this means. They identify a symbol, and move onward, never at all considering the connection that must be made to the redemption plan. If any doctrine is separated from Christ Jesus the vine, it is dry, having no saving vitality or life in it. All, must be intimately connected to Jesus, John 15 KJB.
Think for a minute, prayerfully. Jesus is in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, and the seven golden candlesticks are the seven churches of Revelation. What is the fullness of the church, then?
Ephesians 5:23 KJB - For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:27 KJB - That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Ephesians 5:30 KJB - For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Ephesians 5:32 KJB - This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Since the church is the wife of Christ Jesus, even His "body", and Revelation says that Christ Jesus is in the "midst of" the seven churches, the very body, of which we are to be parts of, do any not recognize the plan of redemption, the very purpose of the everlasting Gospel?
Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Those who read Revelation, or any part of the Bible, and do not consider that its very purpose is to have Christ Jesus in them, to give them victory over every temptation, over every besetting sin, open or secret, over every fault, over ever bad habit, in action, speech or thought, have not even realized the very first principle, having missed the very Foundation, having not understood the VERY LOVE OF GOD, IN CHRIST JESUS, in giving Him unto us. Those who teach symbols, and history and prophecy, if they do not teach victory over every sin, every transgression of God's Law of love [Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 20:6; John 14:15 KJ, which includes the Fourth Commandment, Exodus 20:8-11 KJB], know as yet nothing of God's purpose, nor will, but are filled with unsaving knowledge, however intelligent they may be [2 Peter 1:19 KJB]
Read the message to every one of the seven churches:
"... to him that overcometh ..." - Revelation 2:7,11,17,26, 3:5,12,21
Revelation 3:21 KJB - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 KJB - He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
As it is written:
1 John 5:1 KJB - Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:2 KJB - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 KJB - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:4 KJB - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
1 John 5:5 KJB - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:18 KJB - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
For the just shall LIVE by FAITH, and whatsoever is not of Faith is Sin [Romans 14:23 KJB], which is transgression of the Law [1 John 3:4 KJB], because each of the Ten Commandments are promises of God, in the New Covenant, which He promised to fulfill in us [Romans 8:4 KJB], bringing us back into the perfect will [Psalms 40:8 KJB] of God, sinless, living that life of total victory by/through the Holy Spirit, in this sinful flesh, even as Christ Jesus Himself did, overcoming all things.1 John 5:2 KJB - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 KJB - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:4 KJB - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
1 John 5:5 KJB - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:18 KJB - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Righteousness [right-doing] by Faith, now, who LORD believes our report?
We can walk, even to-day, by the Holy Spirit, even as Jesus walked, in the likeness of sinful flesh, without sin, because of the redemption plan of God's love in Christ Jesus.
Let us stop doubting and believe His Word.
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Your quoting of a known false Prophetess shows to us how faulty your theology really is!
AwesomeMachine
Member
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin.
One Baptism
Active Member
Brother, the scriptures [KJB] counsel you, in charity (1 Corinthians 13 KJB), to be very conscientious in quoting scripture, in part, lest they give a false, or slanted meaning, and so be wrested, and end in yours and others destruction, even as the devil did not quote the whole of a psalm (Psalms 91:11,12; Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:11 KJB).
The whole of Proverbs 10:19 KJB, says:
Proverbs 10:19 KJB - "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise."
Therefore, I pray you will take notice that it refers to the words of men, not God's word, and that my own posts, for the majority part, cite God's word, and in Him, and His words, however many there be, is no sin, whatsoever.
Job 11:2 KJB, yes indeed, they ought be answered by Thus saith the Lord, even as Jesus Himself in the wilderness, in response to that tempter.
Thank you, and now back on OP.
AwesomeMachine
Member
I actually just wanted your attention. Without realizing it, you abuse scripture. I encourage you to view scripture as a living entity, not as a summation of words. I also encourage you, for better understanding, to occasionally use more than one version of the Bible. The Bible is a living word.
It doesn't mean one thing for all people for all time. It must be interpreted as a function of the social context in which it was written, and how it applies today. Perhaps I was uncharitable in my previous Bible quotation.
So, let me just say, your prose are so long and drawn out that they're difficult to follow. It almost appears that you use a multiplicity of words to establish your authority in matters of scripture. And you use a version of scripture that was translated without care to translate the same word in a similar context to the exact same word in English.
So, you can't do word studies with the KJV. It doesn't come out right. But, I have to give you credit. You don't quit when the going gets tough. I think you'll find the truth you're looking for. Just keep plugging away at it.
It doesn't mean one thing for all people for all time. It must be interpreted as a function of the social context in which it was written, and how it applies today. Perhaps I was uncharitable in my previous Bible quotation.
So, let me just say, your prose are so long and drawn out that they're difficult to follow. It almost appears that you use a multiplicity of words to establish your authority in matters of scripture. And you use a version of scripture that was translated without care to translate the same word in a similar context to the exact same word in English.
So, you can't do word studies with the KJV. It doesn't come out right. But, I have to give you credit. You don't quit when the going gets tough. I think you'll find the truth you're looking for. Just keep plugging away at it.
One Baptism
Active Member
This, brother, I already knew from the first, even from your first response in the other thread, and almost didn't bother, but in charity (1 Corinthians 13 KJB) I gave you a precious moment of time (paid for by the blood of Jesus), and so this will be my last response to you (for I do not, and will not, desire to waste such time (I will be held accountable), therefore unless you would like to address the OP topics directly and on point, brother, this is where yourself and I part company, for the things you have written is the heart and soul of Jesuitism, and Jesuitism cannot be healed, nor reasoned with, it needs to be abandoned and forsaken, for in the end, it will be destroyed altogether.
One Baptism
Active Member
The Daniel and Revelation comparison has been re-uploaded [as the time limit expired] for anyone desiring to down load and peruse it.
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=02188528893778979904
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=02188528893778979904
One Baptism
Active Member
There is a current study going on in regards Revelation 8:13, & 9 - 11 KJB, in particularly, the 5th [Revelation 9:1-12 KJB], 6th [Revelation 9:13-21, 10:1-11, 11:1-14 KJB] and 7th [Revelation 11:15-19 KJB] Trumpets.
Please allow me to share some connections and language parallels, without getting into the identification of the symbols just yet, or of the timeframes spoken of therein:
Please allow me to share some connections and language parallels, without getting into the identification of the symbols just yet, or of the timeframes spoken of therein:
Revelation 8:13 KJB - And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 14:6 KJB
“And I ...” | “And I ...”
“... beheld ...” | “... saw ...”
“... and heard an ...” | “... another ...”
“... angel ...” | “... angel ...”
“... flying ...” | “... fly ...”
“... through ...” | “... in ...”
“... the midst of ...” | “... the midst of ...”
“... heaven ...” | “... heaven ...”
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 14:7 KJB
“... saying ...” | "Saying ...”
“... with a ...” | “... with a ...”
“... loud ...” | “... loud ...”
“... voice ...” | “... voice ...”
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 14:8 KJB
“... woe ...” | “... is fallen ...” ??? [placeholder]
“... woe ...” | “... is fallen ...” ??? [placeholder]
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 12:12 KJB
“... woe, ...” | “... Woe ...”
“... to the ...” | “... to the ...”
“... inhabiters ...” | “... inhabiters ...”
“... of the ...” | “... of the ...”
“... earth ...” | “... earth ...”
[“... and of the sea ...”]
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 14:6-12 KJB
“... by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!” | [3 Angels Messages, see “... the third angel ...”]
“And I ...” | “And I ...”
“... beheld ...” | “... saw ...”
“... and heard an ...” | “... another ...”
“... angel ...” | “... angel ...”
“... flying ...” | “... fly ...”
“... through ...” | “... in ...”
“... the midst of ...” | “... the midst of ...”
“... heaven ...” | “... heaven ...”
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 14:7 KJB
“... saying ...” | "Saying ...”
“... with a ...” | “... with a ...”
“... loud ...” | “... loud ...”
“... voice ...” | “... voice ...”
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 14:8 KJB
“... woe ...” | “... is fallen ...” ??? [placeholder]
“... woe ...” | “... is fallen ...” ??? [placeholder]
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 12:12 KJB
“... woe, ...” | “... Woe ...”
“... to the ...” | “... to the ...”
“... inhabiters ...” | “... inhabiters ...”
“... of the ...” | “... of the ...”
“... earth ...” | “... earth ...”
[“... and of the sea ...”]
Revelation 8:13 KJB | Revelation 14:6-12 KJB
“... by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!” | [3 Angels Messages, see “... the third angel ...”]