Why do you keep saying that. I have denied that position every time you accused me of believing it. Either show me where I believe or admit to believing in a parenthesis church or retract your statement.
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Darby = Dispensationalism
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
:thumbs: Darbyists and Darbyism. Easier to type than Dispensationalists and Dispensationalism. (although I do find Sensationalists and Sensationalism to be very fitting)
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Where does Darby say it is a parenthesis show his commentary!
So you believe Darby taught the Apostle Paul about dispensations? And that Darby must have taught it to those of the early church who believed in the pre-trib return of Christ like Polycarp who was a student of John and He taught Iraneaus who believed in a literal return of Christ for believers before the Tribulation. So you also believe that Darby taught it John? So how is that Darby is supposedly the one who started the pre-trib dispensationalism, when Paul himself said this,
Ephesians 3:2-6,
2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:'
Seems Paul taught dispensations and the church as a mystery not revealed to the O.T. prophets. So did Paul learn about the dispensation of Grace (which by almost every dispensational teacher is the current dispensation) from Darby or did the teaching exist all the way back to Paul? Was the mystery of the dispensation of the grace of God given to Darby or Paul?
Paul says it was given to him! I think I'll acknowledge Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as the one who first taught dispensationalism.
Break this down and explain what Paul was talking about!
So you believe Darby taught the Apostle Paul about dispensations? And that Darby must have taught it to those of the early church who believed in the pre-trib return of Christ like Polycarp who was a student of John and He taught Iraneaus who believed in a literal return of Christ for believers before the Tribulation. So you also believe that Darby taught it John? So how is that Darby is supposedly the one who started the pre-trib dispensationalism, when Paul himself said this,
Ephesians 3:2-6,
2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:'
Seems Paul taught dispensations and the church as a mystery not revealed to the O.T. prophets. So did Paul learn about the dispensation of Grace (which by almost every dispensational teacher is the current dispensation) from Darby or did the teaching exist all the way back to Paul? Was the mystery of the dispensation of the grace of God given to Darby or Paul?
Paul says it was given to him! I think I'll acknowledge Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as the one who first taught dispensationalism.
Ephesians 3:2
2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:"
oikonomia vines 3622
in Ephesians 3:2 , of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;"
Just as the Jews were given the dispensation of the Law that is stewardship of the Law. Each dispensation God gave mankind a specific Stewardship regarding His word and the spreading of the Gospel.
2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:"
oikonomia vines 3622
in Ephesians 3:2 , of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;"
Just as the Jews were given the dispensation of the Law that is stewardship of the Law. Each dispensation God gave mankind a specific Stewardship regarding His word and the spreading of the Gospel.
Why do you care that they characterize it as a parenthesis church?
Other than him accusing all dispensationalist as teaching the "parenthesis church " and saying it was started by Darby I don't. The problem with OR is he will say something is false or it is nonsense or that all dispensationalist are darbyites I don't care.
He is not going to change his mind and he does not want a reasonable discussion. He only wants to be right and he is willing to mischaracterize what he disagrees with in order to do that. His posts are full of informal fallacies. If you engage him the discussion becomes nothing more that who can beat up the other more. Any reasonable points he makes, few as they may be, are lost the the sea of vitrol he posts over them.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I did not say Darby developed the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. I said, read it again. I will even enlarge the appropriate print for your education!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are bearing false witness. I have repeatedly attributed the pre-trib-snatching away" of the Church to Darby but I have also stated repeatedly that the "parenthesis" Church as an interruption in GOD's program for national/ethnic Israel was espoused by Chafer, Ryrie, and Ironside! Actually Chafer called it an intercalation!
{http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99519}
{http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80260}
You say "The Darbyite Pre-Trib-dispensational-doctrine is false doctrine." Why not explain what is wrong with Darby's teaching without talking about the "Parenthesis Church" if that is all you feel is false about then connect back to its first use, if Darby didn't teach it and you say that is what you have heartburn over, then show how this is connected back to Darby. I have read very little from Darby and never seen anything about a "Parenthesis Church" where I have found it was by another teacher and he used it as an analogy (illustration) to show what was being said, but never saying the church was a Parenthesis, there you are reading into what was taught.
Do you think every analogy (illustration) used by Pastors and teachers in churches constitute their doctrinal beliefs?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is comical if it were not tragically false. The Rapture Ready folks in general are the most arrogant people in Christendom, more so than Roman Catholics. The only two on this Forum posting currently that will reasonably discuss the doctrine are blessedwife318 and HankD. blessed wife318 has been repeatedly been insulted by Darrell C for her willingness to have a reasonable discussion and for outing, along with HankD, the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church.
I posted on another thread:
This is true...check out Chafer's "Systematic Theology". He uses this term in either vol. 3 or 4.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have been talking about the false doctrine of Darby on this BB for ten years and all I get in general are snotty remarks like those of DC. The Rapture Ready folks in general vehemently resent anyone who doubts Darby and Scofield.
I disagree with the eschatology of the Pre-Cribbers and think it is totally inBiblical invented out of whole cloth by Darby. That being said that is not the mpst egregious error of pre-trib-dispensationalism. It is the doctrine that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a "parenthesis: an intercalation in GOD's program for national/ethnic Israel. Isaac Watts said it well in the link DHK so graciously provided!
Whether dispensationalists want to acknowledge it or not the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church came out of the womb of John Nelson Darby's pre-trib-dispensational doctrine!
On an earlier thread I posted remarks by the great song writer, Isaac Watts, regarding the Church and National Israel. [http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99519}They are appropriate here:
I agree with Watts except for his replacement comments. The Church did not replace Israel it is a continuation of true or spiritual Israel. GOD has only one people, those redeemed by the death of Jesus Christ. That death was instigated by the Jews as I have shown elsewhere from Scripture.
You always connect the "Parenthesis Church" to the dispensationist and pre-tribbers, that is not a false statement.
Post 24 of the thread "Church Rapture seen in Revlation 4:1-4" you stated
"Wonder what Jesus Christ will do about those who teach HIS Church for which HE died is simply a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel?"
Who are those according to you all dispensationlist and all pre-tribbers.
The balance of that statement goes "I have already shown that Isaac Watts whom you people touted as a dispensationalists believed as I do that GOD is finished with National Israel.
The Elect of Israel will be saved, as Paul states, just like the Elect of every ethnic or national group in the world!"
Who are you people I never even posted to that except to say I had not read Watts work.
By your definaition all dispensationalist and pre-tribbers.
Post #30 of that same thread you say "I don't insist on a "parenthesis" Church. It is pre-trib-"snatching"-away-of-the Church Dispensational scholars who do!"
post 22 of the thread "The Apostle Peter on the Second Coming of Our LORD"
You state "Any pre-trib-dispensationalist is a follower of the doctrine invented by John Nelson Darby. I have posted numerous times the remarks of pre-trib-dispensational scholar Dr. Thomas Ice regarding John Nelson Darby as the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism. That is indisputable."
#27 you state "I have never studied Calvin or Augustine. But I can show from Scripture that the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace are true. You can't do that with pre-trib-dispensationalism and its "parenthesis" Church! Furthermore, you can try to separate yourself from Darby but you are joined at the hip by the same doctrine!"
There it is again, you connect everyone to Darby and the Parenthesis church.
This wil be the final and conclusive statement by you and prove my statement not to be false, Post #36
You stated "Peter's point is that the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the so-called "parenthesis" Church is fiction created by the mind of a convalescing John Nelson Darby; a false, pernicious doctrine which has seduced millions of people in this country, just as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism, and Christian Science have!"
I think we can all see this final one let me repost just that portion so there will be no doubt "the so-called "parenthesis" Church is fiction created by the mind of a convalescing John Nelson Darby."
I believe you did say it now show us where "the so-called "parenthesis" Church is fiction created by the mind of a convalescing John Nelson Darby" it was taught by Darby and for that matter by every dispensationalist or pre-tribber.
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OR while I appreciate your support I don't think it is fair to say that Darrell C has been insulting to me. Snarky yes, but not insulting. And he really is just trying to engage in a legitimate debate, the only thing he is trying to make me play offense and present my own view when so far I have not done so, just been playing defense and poking holes in others arguments. But again thank you for the support.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have said on hundreds of occasions over the past ten years that you people incorrectly understand the Scripture you claim shows the pre-trib-"snatching away of the Church. You are not using the literal hermeneutic pre-tribbers insist they use. You are spiritualizing it, reading something into it to support Darby's error!
I have also presented Scripture that using the dispensational hermeneutic of literal interpretation, what Ryrie calls "taking at face value" clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment. But rather than use the much vaunted literal hermeneutic you use the "splintering" hermeneutic dispensationalist love to use on Scripture that refutes their doctrine and discard the true teaching of that passage from GOD's Word. Of course I am talking about John 5:28, 29.
You claim you never heard of the "parenthesis" Church of pre-trib doctrine but I notice you found it in a valley after blessedwife318 and HankD outed you people. I have also noticed that since then you, like DC, are harassing blessed wife 318. Why not harass HankD. Is he too tough or too honest for you and DC to take on!
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Yes...it does.
Luke 16:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
16 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
Now hear Paul speak of the dispensation of the Gospel:
2 Corinthians 3:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
When you can understand that revelation has been progressive, you will stop attacking Biblical concepts.
Yes...there was.
lol
Here it is again:
Hebrews 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Go and learn what that meaneth.
And your penchant for Church Fathers betrays you.
Get into the Books of the Bible, my friend, and stay out of books about the Bible. Just try it for a month or so, you won't be sorry.
God bless.
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You just can't address a post on topic, can you?
And then challenge my comprehension.
I wish I could find a teacher that presents the doctrine as I do.
If you find one, let me know.
And this is what you always present when you are asked specific questions.
You never speak of the Covenants. In fact, in the last post, you deny that the Covenant of Law was a specific dispensation.
You never speak of the grace of God. All you present is your hatred for Darby and Pre-Trib believers.
Grace is really the last thing that comes to mind when your posts are read.
Or perhaps the recovery of that which was lost in the stranglehold of the Catholic Church, which traditions you have aptly proven to be alive and well.
Just not going to work with Bible Students.
Never has.
And let's see, someone who claims "Christ returned" in the First Century...
...definitely the doctrine of cults, and not of Bible Students.
God bless.
beameup
Member
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages [in other dispensations] was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Eph 3:2-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past [past dispensation] ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come [dispensations to come] he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:1-7
1) Past
2) Present
3) Future
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past [past dispensation] ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come [dispensations to come] he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:1-7
1) Past
2) Present
3) Future