Lol.....yea she is now awake, thank God.
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Darby = Dispensationalism
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
Lol.....yea she is now awake, thank God.
Yeah, OR made some really good points that no one could answer
convicted1
Guest
Yeah, OR made some really good points that no one could answer
You can learn MUCH from him, imo. I love him bunches...
Yes he gave me some good links that sum up Amill well.
convicted1
Guest
How can any be saved during the tribulation, seeing the church is raptured out and the Spirit's removed?
How does anyone get 1007 years betwixt the resurrection in light of Matthew 25, John 5:28-29, and Rev. 20, when it appears that all are standing before Him on the day of Judgement?
Not joining this fray, just want the other side's scriptural stance concerning these two questions. Thanks in advance...
How does anyone get 1007 years betwixt the resurrection in light of Matthew 25, John 5:28-29, and Rev. 20, when it appears that all are standing before Him on the day of Judgement?
Not joining this fray, just want the other side's scriptural stance concerning these two questions. Thanks in advance...
convicted1
Guest
:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbsup:
First, the Church does not save people. God does that. He initiates salvation by enlightening the minds of natural man. He is called by Christ the Comforter, sometimes translated the Helper, and that ministry is specific to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was a mystery prior to Pentecost.
Secondly, God is omniscient. While it is true there are Pre-Trib Rapturists who make a comment like "The Holy Spirit isn't in the Tribulation because He is raptured out with the Church," that doesn't mean that all Pre-Trib Rapturists teach that. The fact is that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, but if we pay attention to detail, we would see He is not taken out of the world:
2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
But it typical for some people to debate the errors of others rather than addressing the valid points of a doctrine. We have seen this in most of the threads pertaining to the Rapture. The spam is overwhelming.
Even threads are started like this: "So and so said such and such and I would like to know everyone's opinion on that..."
Thirdly, those saved in the Tribulation will be saved like as we are...by grace through faith in Christ. They will be born again as we are, and have to be, because that is Christ's teaching concerning entrance to the Millennial Kingdom.
That the Tribulation is seven years begins in Daniel:
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The word translated "weeks" means simply seven, so in view are seventy sevens. We see that the first 69 come before Messiah is cut off. We also see that "the prince that shall come" confirms the Covenant, which in a context dealing with Daniel's people, this would refer to the Covenant of Law. In the midst, or middle of the week, he causes sacrifice and oblation to cease, meaning...he is no longer confirming the covenant.
In chapter 12, we read...
Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Note that given is 3 1/2 years from the time when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Note that there are 1290 days from the time the sacrifice is taken away (which coincides with the prince that is to come causing sacrifice and oblation to cease) and the abomination of desolation set up. Note there are 1335 days in total.
All of these mark the mid-point of the Tribulation. The additional 75 days, are, I believe, the period in which we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment, when the Kingdom is being established.
Further we cannot see a consecutive 3 1/2 year period for both the Tw Witnesses...
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
...and the beast...
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Furthermore, we see Christ's warning here...
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...coincide with the unleashing of the beast who seeks to persecute Israel, who is preserved in the Wilderness for...
Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So it is reasonable to see that since the Seventieth Week has not yet been fulfilled, it stands to reason that the Tribulation will be a seven (year period). If one can coincide the Ministry of the Two Witnesses with that of the beast, or show how the Seventieth Week will not be a seven, but a 3 1/2, divided perhaps, then it would be an interesting thing to see.
As far as the thousand years...
...I'll pretend you didn't ask that.
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Back to the OP: Darby = Dispensationalism
The Sand and the Stars
John Nelson Darby, one of the founders of the Brethren, along with Cyrus Scofield, through his Scofield Reference Bible, popularised the novel idea that God has two separate plans - one being fulfilled through the Church, the other through Israel. According to Scofield, ‘Comparing then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny all is contrast.’ Lewis Sperry Chafer, one of Scofield’s students, elaborates on this alleged dichotomy between Israel and the church,
http://www.christianzionism.org/BibleSays/Sizer03.pdf[/quote]
The Sand and the Stars
John Nelson Darby, one of the founders of the Brethren, along with Cyrus Scofield, through his Scofield Reference Bible, popularised the novel idea that God has two separate plans - one being fulfilled through the Church, the other through Israel. According to Scofield, ‘Comparing then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny all is contrast.’ Lewis Sperry Chafer, one of Scofield’s students, elaborates on this alleged dichotomy between Israel and the church,
The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity... Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne’ so that in eternity ...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet.
http://www.christianzionism.org/BibleSays/Sizer03.pdf[/quote]
Ahhhh Willis, be careful what you wish for.
convicted1
Guest
Never stated the church saved. It's the duty of the church, through the workings of the Spirit, to preach the gospel. If the church and Spirit are raptured out prior to the seven years of tribulation, how are those here saved when there is no one...see the church...to witness and preach the gospel to them?
I ask for clarification of your stance...thanks...
I ask for clarification of your stance...thanks...
The guy is extremely well studied....he has all his marbles at an advanced age can exegete properly. You go brother OR you go!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Apparently you haven't read that passage of Scripture that that says Jesus Christ died on the Cross for national/ethnic Israel! Not to worry though, I haven't either. Now if one of these pre-cribbers would simply post it save a lot of time.
Yes. I use the terminology of systematic theologies (as well as you yourself) as a kind of shorthand to address the differences concerning the interpretations of scripture relative to a focused study e.g. The second coming of Christ. If you read my past posts you will see that I say "generally" I am dispensational because it easily identifies some of my views on the Second Coming of Christ.
Labeling has become an almost necessary evil and that began in the infant church.
I have said this as well as using these labels especially if men are identified as "originators" of these doctrines.
If we have identified ourselves of Baptists that means we identify with the distinctives of the Baptist denomination . One cannot find "The Baptist Distinctives" per se in the scripture It is a tool to show our differences with other Christians and a shorthand systematic theology.
e.g. Believers Baptism distinctive - Total immersion of a believer in water with the Trinitarian formula as an ordinance that portrays our identity with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, said water baptism not necessary to salvation.
So being a Baptist has a systematic theology attached to it whether we accept it or not. But in fact we do accept it as a way of identifying ourselves and not as a way of developing a scripture but to differentiate our selves from our non-baptist reformed brethren who practice pado-baptism and/or sprinkling as a covenant ritual.
Do you see that you are doing this yourself (discrediting others Christians) by labeling them with the innuendo phrase of "blind dog"?
Years ago when I joined the BB I did use discrediting terms and phrases but saw (or was shown the error of my ways) and repented and publicly apologized to those whom I had offended. I still "slip" on occasion.
Complex doctrinal positions such as dipensationlism have intersecting sets with other doctrine. When that is true and it is helpful to speak about the similarities either in content or history, I use it.
Actually Darrell, the doctrine of the Trinity developed over 3 centuries before what we now call the Roman Catholic Church in its ritualized form existed. The first clarification of the doctrine of the Trinity which was made from a collection of scripture was developed by Athanasius of Alexandria - circa AD 325 - and (here we go again with men's names) was called the Athanasius Creed.
http://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/athanasian-creed
Accepted by Protestants, Reformed and yes even Baptists, although many prefer some elements of the Nicene Creed
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/page/creeds
My discussion with OR is/was to show him that the elements of dispensationalism including the pre-trib interpretation of scripture did not originate with Darby of whom I said I did not agree.
True and the Holy Spirit has also provided the human element to the church to help us along
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
If all of us here believe that the Holy Spirit does not use human teachers, why are we here at the BB expressing our objections and attemping to correct others?
My venue now is that I am here to shown and understand our differences without the use of insult and innuendo of which I am still occasionally guilty.
And I am sure that we agree that our objections/corrections/sharing among ourselves are (or should not be) for self aggrandizement but for the betterment of our brethren though our method and approach may differ we should all have the following characteristics:
2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
May God bless you as well brother.
HankD
convicted1
Guest
I just don't understand the literal interpretation they used in light of Rev 1 and it's allegorical view of Christ and the seven churches of Asia Minor...
convicted1
Guest
Well....when u only had 2 to begin with...:smilewinkgrin:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Two beats one. They at least make more noise rattling around!
convicted1
Guest
OMG...that's hilarious!!!! :thumbsup::laugh::laugh::thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
Great! Thanks! I now have thoughts of preachers in the stand rattling their change in their pockets trying to preach...
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Are you fessin up!