Dating a Luthuran...

As a Lutheran I would recommend against going up to recieve communion, particularly if it is a Wisconsin Evang. Synod, or Missouri Synod. Unless you agree with our teachings on Holy Communion because reception of Communion is viewed as agreement with stated beliefs on Communion.

Plus I would recommend that if you are truly interested in learning what Lutherans teach read our literature and not what others say.

I would recommend
Spirituality of the Cross by Gene Edward Veith
Luther's Large and Small Catechisms.
both are available at
www.cph.org

 

Welcome back Chem. Haven't heard from you for some time.
DHK

 

Geetings Biblethumper, I see this is your first post yet you have been a member for some time. Evidently, you prefer to listen and watch than to speak and act. Sometimes, that is good advice for all of us. I am responding with empathy, for my lovely, faithful, smart, successful and Godly wife is "a Lutheran" from birth if there is such a thing. Her grandfather was a Lutheran Pastor as well as her father, an uncle, and a cousin once removed.

Having said this, I admire your willingness to seek input from others. I'm sure you realize the importance of choosing the person you commit to in marriage carefully and prayerfully. I think some responses have said some good things, while others have been a little naive by appealing to the "its all about love" kind of thinking. I think one ought to think with their head as well as with their heart when making this decision. The world is full of people divorced, who were "in love" when they got married.

Of course, educating yourself on the beliefs of Lutherans is a good step. Even allowing them to speak for themselves is only fair. Opposing groups often misrepresent the other with or without maliscious intent. I think speaking with your love interest about their salvation and where they see attending church as a family--for that is what you'll be once married--is paramount before progressing the relationship. If you are a woman, do not forget you are taking a man to be your head, even as Christ is head of the church. That is why you must seek understanding and a common Christian Faith now before you progress to engagement. You will cross these bridges, now is better than later.

Those who emphasize baptism by sprinkling only hit a more minor point. It is true that Lutherans will baptize by immersion if the convert wants it. The real issue has to do with your beloved's belief about Biblical salvation. (soteriology) While we Baptists hold strident views of what constitutes the proper baptismal mode, it is the Lutheran's sacremental belief that the rite of baptism imparts some efficacious grace to the baptizee that is troublesome and, we believe, not Biblical Christianity. It is possible that tied up in your beloved's profession of salvation is faith in his or her baptism as an infant. Baptists, by contrast, practice "believer's Baptism." We believe it is an answer of a clear conscience before God.

I am sure you have a brother or sister in the Lord or your Pastor who can share the Biblical basis for our beliefs. As far as the Liturgy of many Liturgical churches such as the Lutheran church, (of which there are many kinds, just like Baptists) I think it is a lovely way to worship, and as long as it is Biblical, it is simply a different style.

You should also be aware that the Lutheran church's consubstantational belief about communion is also sacramental in nature and presents some theological contrast to the Baptist one. Do look into this as well. In closing, let me tell you that it was not easy for my wife to tell her parents of her believer's baptism nor was it easy for them to hear. The same firestorm came up when we had children. I made certain she did not believe the sacremental nature of her infant baptism before we were married. We have been able through a common faith and our love committment to make it work for us work for us but as someone else said, marriage today has enough against it, try to make a wise choice and God bless you. Sorry for the long reply.

 

If that person really is saved, then they should get out of the Lutheran Church. Martin Luther taught Sacramental Salvation, which is of course the Catholic, works based, salvation. These are some of Luthers quotes

The Large Catechism "It remains for us to speak of our two sacraments, instituted by Christ. Every Christian ought to have at least some brief, elementary instruction in them because without these no one can be a Christian ... First we shall take up Baptism through which we are first received into the Christian community. ... Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved" (pp. 80-81).

"'He who believes and is baptized will be saved,' that is, faith alone makes the person worthy to receive the salutary, divine water profitably. ... But it becomes beneficial to you if you accept it as God's command and ordinance, so that, baptized in the name of God, you may receive in the water the promised salvation" (pp. 84-85). (Bold added.)

"For here in the sacrament [Communion] you receive from Christ's lips the forgiveness of sins, which contains and conveys God's grace and Spirit with all his gifts, protection, defense, and power against death and the devil and all evils" (The Large Catechism--p. 98).

LUTHER’S SMALL CATECHISM, Concordia publishing, 1971

B. Because Holy baptism is the only means whereby infants, who, too, must be born again, can ordinarily be regenerated and brought to faith;
C. Because infants, also, can believe.


God's Word says we are saved by our faith apart from works

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

Romans 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."


God also says if you put your faith in your works, you will be severed from Christ, and He will be of no benefit to you.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Galatians 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Galatians 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

We all deserve Hell, and can only go to Heaven by God's grace, by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. There are no "works" that can get us to Heaven, but it is our faith that is reckoned as righteousness. The law was intended as a tutor, to show us that we can't save ourselves, and come to Christ on our knees asking for His atonement, which was given freely by His grace.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

I would recommend testing whether this person really has put their faith in Jesus Christ for her salvation

 

If you actually read Luther and other Lutheran Materials closely. You will notice that we speak of sacraments as a gift of God to be recieved. Never once is it concidered a work that we are doing. In Lutheran theology it is God doing all the work. We aren't doing anything. In fact if you are so concerned about defending salvation by faith alone then you should examine your own use of language.

"I would recommend testing whether this person really has put their faith in Jesus Christ for her salvation "

person= subject
put = verb
Jesus = indirect object
Look at your own statement. Who is doing what? According to you it is the person not Jesus.

In Lutheran theology when we speak of salvation it is always God who is doing the verbs not man. It is always God doing the work. We only recieve the benefits of God's work as a free gift.

 

BibleThumper,

I am a Catholic who dated (and almost married) a Lutheran for 2 years. It was a wonderful relationship which, in the end, was simply not ordained by God. Differences will occur, regardless of your denomination. Just pray that God will give you his wisdom and that you will constantly be remade in his image, that way you can see nothing but the truth!

As a side note, Catholic sacramentology is quite similar to Lutheran sacramentology. Sacraments are gifts from God in which God shows himself to us using Earthly means...quite similar...but as this is not the point of this thread...I will not say more as to not change the point.

Pax Christi,

Stephen

 

You're absolutely right that Catholicism and Lutheranism are virtually identical in their sacramental gospels. Sacraments is another name for works, which was designed to get around the fact that we can't be saved by our works. If it's God's work, then wait until God decides to sprinkle water on you to save you. The truth is that sacraments are a man made system of works that can't save you. It is by believing the gospel, of Jesus Christ paying for your sins on the cross, which seals you with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"


Just look at how Cornelius, the Ethiopian Eunich, and the Phillippian Jailor were saved. It was through their faith in Christ, to pay for their sins. They were born again, or baptized in the Spirit through faith, and then they performed the water ceremony. What about the theif on the cross? He didn't receive any sacraments, yet Jesus told him he was saved by faith.

 

Sealed,

Quite correct, sacraments cannot save you, only God can. But God does offer gifts from which we can interact with him that are administered through his church. Those are called sacraments. There are also sacraments outside of the church. For instance, if you have ever beheld a sunset and thought of or were thankful for the beauty of God, then you have experianced a sacrament...a use of nature by which God expresses himself.

Pax Christi,

Stephen