Hi Ian,
Thanks for the three paragraphs from Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses that I requested. Now we're getting somewhere.
By the way, we have a policy on this board that is pretty well adhered to. When we use someone else's commentary or writing, we give a reference so as 1. not to plagiarize, and 2. it's always good to know the source.
Let's look at what Irenaeus has to tell us, and I hope that you pay attention to what he has to say here.. avoiding the tendency to skip his timeless witness:
IRENAEUS: "It is within the power of all, therefore, in
every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the
tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were
by the apostles instituted
bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the
succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about."
Irenaeus says that
everyone is able to
clearly see the
tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world. Every Christian Church has
bishops who were appointed by the
apostles or
succeed the apostles. This sounds like Roman Catholicism.. just without Roman primacy.
IRENAEUS: "For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom
they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind
as their successors, delivering up
their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity."
The apostles committed the
Churches to these
bishops as their
successors. In the same way that the apostles
governed, so should these men. This office is so real and important that if the bishops discharge their duties well, it will bless the church, but if they fail, calamity will be the result for the Church.
IRENAEUS: "Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the
successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in
unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that
tradition derived from the
apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and
universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time
by means of the successions of the bishops."
Every church has succession from the apostles, and that's what makes the churches
ecclesia. Those who organize in
unauthorized meetings are put to confusion by the presentation of the clear fact that all Churches exist with authority, governed by bishops, who are the sucessors of the Apostles, as we have seen above.
IRENAEUS: "For it is a matter of
necessity that
every Church should agree with this Church, on account of
its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Every Church should agree with the Roman Church because of its
pre-eminent authority. How does a Church get authority? By the handing down of the episcopate and the giving of apostolic authority as we have seen above.
IRENAEUS: "
The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church,
committed into the hands of Linus
the office of the episcopate. Of this
Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded
Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles,
Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and
their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand
the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded
Evaristus.
Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles,
Sixtus was appointed; after him,
Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then
Hyginus; after him,
Pius; then after him,
Anicletus.
Sorer having succeeded Anicetus,
Eleutherius does now,
in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate."
Irenaeus gives a clear accounting (he's in Gaul - modern day France - this accounting is known throughout the universal Church) of the succession of the episcopate from
Linus to
Eleutherius, the 12th successor in this bishopric, who holds the
inheritance of the episcopate. Irenaeus, you're beginning to sound a little
Roman Catholic here.
IRENAEUS: "
In this order, and
by this succession, the
ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles,
and the
preaching of the
truth,
have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is
one and the same vivifying
faith, which has been
preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."
Remember what you said, Ian?
1. "
Peter has no connection to the impostors who claim his office today"
2. "
the Spirit of Christ within a true Christian will draw him/her to the infallible words the apostles left us and will cause us to reject as demonic the traditions and institutions of men who have turned away from the Truth."
3. "
If the Roman Catholic Church is the true church then our bible is worth no more to us."
Irenaeus confounds you, Ian.
God bless,
Carson
[ April 07, 2002, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]