Dead in sin and trespasses...

[Winman]

If spiritual death means complete inability, this raises some serious questions;

1) How can false doctrine or damnable heresy be of any consequence?
(a)The spiritually dead cannot believe the truth, so why do the devil and demons need to spread false doctrine? Big waste of time and energy if you ask me.
(b)The elect cannot be deceived to the point of losing salvation, so again, false doctrine is meaningless.

2) What need is there of the devil going about as a roaring lion seeking who he can devour?
(a) The dead are as dead as they can be, everything they do is sin, their every imagination is only evil continually, they are condemned forever to the lake of fire. Why tempt men? They are already ruined and destroyed. If everything they do is sin, you can't make them sin more. You don't need to tempt them, they will naturally do evil.
(b) The devil cannot prevent the elect from being regenerated, at most he can only cause an elect person to lose some rewards. This seems to be the only meaningful thing the devil and demons can do.

So really, what can the devil do? He has aleady destroyed the unelect as far as they can be destroyed. He caused man to fall and his nature to be so corrupt man will now destroy himself. There is no need to spread damnable heresy, the unelect are unable to accept the truth, and they are already damned. The devil can do very little to the elect.

Why bother? If I were the devil I would relax on the beach with a lemonade and simply let nature take it's course. No need for the demons to spread false doctrine either, I would call them up and have a party while we still can.

 

[Van]

Hi Winman, as one observer put it, why do Calvinists work so hard attempting to discredit the views of non-Calvinists. Answer: Because even they do not believe their doctrine.
In their system we are saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity, and absolutely nothing a person does will alter that outcome for himself or his loved ones. But the reality is false teachers matter, total spiritual inability is a myth as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.

 

[David Lamb]

Hi David Lamb,

"It seems (and please put me right if I am in error) that you believe the Pharisees to be more powerful than God. You seem to be saying that there were people who would have become Christians if only those pesky Pharisees hadn't stopped them, and that God was powerless to do anything to remedy the situation. That doesn't sound like the all-powerful God of the bible to me."

This view is consistent with God being all powerful. If God had compelled those who were entering with irresistible grace, they would have entered and those pesky false teachers would not have prevented them from entering. But if God allows people to trust in Christ from the heart with all their heart, and they are turned aside by false teachers, that is consistent with God's purpose and does not challenge His power. So the issue is what did God choose to do, not what He had the power to do.

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that being spiritually dead does not result in total spiritual inability.

So these people who were entering in, but were dissuaded from doing so by the Pharisees - were they among the "all" of whom Jesus said in John 6.37: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me, I will by no means cast out"?

If not, then they would not have been saved, even if there were no false teachers around.

If they were, then Jesus must have been wrong when He said those words of John 6.37.......

...... unless those words of condemnation to the Pharisees could mean that although their intention was to prevent people believing in Jesus Christ, that intention was thwarted by God. I don't know. Would the Greek bear such a "translation"? Or is it perhaps a case of Jewish idiom, similar to the instance when Jesus said that people who wished to follow Him had to hate mother, father, brothers, sisters, etc. which could mean in Jewish idiom "love less"? Perhaps someone who is skilled in the original languages could tell us.

 

[psalms109:31]

Love

It is amazing how Jesus tells us to love Him over our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers.

That I am to love Him more than my pastor, my deacons, everyone. Then when I love Him more than anyone I should love others as I love myself. As in someone like the good Samaritan. Who doesn't think like me, act like me, believe the same things as me.

To give them the same hope as I have Jesus Christ, not some religion that can't believe and change scripture to match their theology.

God said Himself that He is going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord and that He was going to hide the truth from the wise and learned. That He will disown those who disown Him, not a Peter denial, but a complete disowning

It is pretty simple who the Father is given to His Son.

 

[David Lamb]

It is amazing how Jesus tells us to love Him over our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers.

That I am to love Him more than my pastor, my deacons, everyone. Then when I love Him more than anyone I should love others as I love myself. As in someone like the good Samaritan. Who doesn't think like me, act like me, believe the same things as me.

To give them the same hope as I have Jesus Christ, not some religion that can't believe and change scripture to match their theology.

God said Himself that He is going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord and that He was going to hide the truth from the wise and learned. That He will disown those who disown Him, not a Peter denial, but a complete disowning

It is pretty simple who the Father is given to His Son.

Not sure if your post 44 was in reply to my post 43, and if it was, I can't work out whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I wrote. Sorry about that.

 

[Rippon]

Not sure if your post 44 was in reply to my post 43, and if it was, I can't work out whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I wrote. Sorry about that.

No offense to Ps.,but most of us here are not so sure where he is coming from the majority of the time with his greeting card pietistic lines replete with poor grammar.

 

[psalms109:31]

Not sure if your post 44 was in reply to my post 43, and if it was, I can't work out whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I wrote. Sorry about that.

I really wasn't disagree with you are agreeing with you, just giving you something to think about with what you said

 

[psalms109:31]

No offense to Ps.,but most of us here are not so sure where he is coming from the majority of the time with his greeting card pietistic lines replete with poor grammar.

If I am speaking in a grammatical tongue, can someone translate for me!

raying:

 

[quantumfaith]

No offense to Ps.,but most of us here are not so sure where he is coming from the majority of the time with his greeting card pietistic lines replete with poor grammar.

So now, you have been promoted. You are not only the "thumbs up" police, but also the grammar police. Congratulations.

 

[glfredrick]

If spiritual death means complete inability, this raises some serious questions;

1) How can false doctrine or damnable heresy be of any consequence?
(a)The spiritually dead cannot believe the truth, so why do the devil and demons need to spread false doctrine? Big waste of time and energy if you ask me.
(b)The elect cannot be deceived to the point of losing salvation, so again, false doctrine is meaningless.

2) What need is there of the devil going about as a roaring lion seeking who he can devour?
(a) The dead are as dead as they can be, everything they do is sin, their every imagination is only evil continually, they are condemned forever to the lake of fire. Why tempt men? They are already ruined and destroyed. If everything they do is sin, you can't make them sin more. You don't need to tempt them, they will naturally do evil.
(b) The devil cannot prevent the elect from being regenerated, at most he can only cause an elect person to lose some rewards. This seems to be the only meaningful thing the devil and demons can do.

So really, what can the devil do? He has aleady destroyed the unelect as far as they can be destroyed. He caused man to fall and his nature to be so corrupt man will now destroy himself. There is no need to spread damnable heresy, the unelect are unable to accept the truth, and they are already damned. The devil can do very little to the elect.

Why bother? If I were the devil I would relax on the beach with a lemonade and simply let nature take it's course. No need for the demons to spread false doctrine either, I would call them up and have a party while we still can.

I answered this yesterday, but my Internet Explorer shut down and I guess it did not save my response.

Lots of great questions!

Simple answer? God is not deterministic, and nothing is as cut and dried as is often portrayed by Arminians and other free-will persons. As has been said any number of times (but it never seems to sink in!) ELECTION does not equate to SALVATION. Election is but one step in the process.

All of the issues above are also seen in our sanctification and effectual call process.

As long as the same fundamental error in theological thinking exists in regard to election, questions like those posed above will always seem as if they are the great antidote to the Reformed position, but they are not.

 

[Van]

Reply to David Lamb

So these people who were entering in, but were dissuaded from doing so by the Pharisees - were they among the "all" of whom Jesus said in John 6.37: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me, I will by no means cast out"?

If not, then they would not have been saved, even if there were no false teachers around.

If they were, then Jesus must have been wrong when He said those words of John 6.37.......

...... unless those words of condemnation to the Pharisees could mean that although their intention was to prevent people believing in Jesus Christ, that intention was thwarted by God. I don't know. Would the Greek bear such a "translation"? Or is it perhaps a case of Jewish idiom, similar to the instance when Jesus said that people who wished to follow Him had to hate mother, father, brothers, sisters, etc. which could mean in Jewish idiom "love less"? Perhaps someone who is skilled in the original languages could tell us.

Excellent Questions, thanks!

How can a person be "entering" and not yet "given by the Father?" 100% of those given are saved, so they had not yet been given. Why does the Father give a person to Christ? Because God credits their faith in Christ as righteousness. So if a person is "entering" they (1) they have been allowed, they have not been precluded by hardening their hearts, (2) they have heard and understood the gospel, having heard and learned to a degree from the Father, but their faith has not yet reached the threshold of God's acceptance. In Matthew 13, we see folks who received the gospel with Joy, but did not believe from the heart, rootless belief that withered under adversity, and others who believed deeply but did not turn loose of all their worldly treasures (things or relationships) so the faith did not grow sufficiently because it was "choked out" by the worldly.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So now, you have been promoted. You are not only the "thumbs up" police, but also the grammar police. Congratulations.

Well he is an English Teacher so he has credibility. Rip, do you still know how to dissect sentences? I always hated doing it in school as my own poor grammar attests to.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[quantumfaith]

Well he is an English Teacher so he has credibility. Rip, do you still know how to dissect sentences? I always hated doing it in school as my own poor grammar attests to.:smilewinkgrin:

I always "struggled" with English and in particular, American Literature. The selections we read in college left me completely depressed and borderline suicidal. I guess I simply prefer emotionally unbiased equations.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I always "struggled" with English and in particular, American Literature. The selections we read in college left me completely depressed and borderline suicidal. I guess I simply prefer emotionally unbiased equations.

Yes brother, but your a Math Major so your mind doesnt work quite like that. Conversely, I was border line suicidal in my Math Classes but in Lit, Psychology & Economics (oh and History) I shined.

Look at Rips post a minute.....each word & sentence is crafted to being a piece of artwork. Like who uses the word "replete" today?

Had Rip been a Brew Meister, he would be a quality beer maker, crafting the cereals, malted barley & hops just so. On that point I am certain.... Crocs & all!

PS: I also spent allot of time in the Rathskeller. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Rippon]

So now, you have been promoted. You are not only the "thumbs up" police, but also the grammar police. Congratulations.

Thanks. I guess someone has to do it since Ed Sutton is no longer with us.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thanks. I guess someone has to do it since Ed Sutton is no longer with us.

Yes but do you still know how to dissect sentences?

 

[Rippon]

Yes but do you still know how to dissect sentences?

I have been known to take a thread off-track at times. But brother,what does sentence dissection have to do with being dead in sin and trespasses?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have been known to take a thread off-track at times. But brother,what does sentence dissection have to do with being dead in sin and trespasses?

Well everything LOL .... Listen the way these guys have been posting lately, Im as coherent as the rest of them. But carry on....we need to know about being dead in sin & trespasses. Isnt that our 1st step? :smilewinkgrin:

BTW.... didnt I answer the question back in post # 35 ?

 

[psalms109:31]

Or is it perhaps a case of Jewish idiom, similar to the instance when Jesus said that people who wished to follow Him had to hate mother, father, brothers, sisters, etc. which could mean in Jewish idiom "love less"? Perhaps someone who is skilled in the original languages could tell us.

I was thinking about that scripture and it brought these to mind

Matthew 10:37
“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 15:
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Then this is who Jesus say's who are our neighbor, it is not just people we like but our enemy by this parable of the good Samaritan and also by His own word.

Matthew 5:
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke 10:

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[A denarius was the usual daily wage of a day laborer (see Matt. 20:2)] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

I even like what John Calvin said about the parable of the good Samaritan

The meaning of the parable for Calvin was, instead, that "compassion, which an enemy showed to a Jew, demonstrates that the guidance and teaching of nature are sufficient to show that man was created for the sake of man. Hence it is inferred that there is a mutual obligation between all men." In other writings, Calvin pointed out that people are not born merely for themselves, but rather "mankind is knit together with a holy knot ... we must not live for ourselves, but for our neighbors."

What you said just brought this to my mind and wanted you to think about.

Maybe someone can start a thread of this.