Dead in sin and trespasses...

[Winman]

The point Steve is implying is that being spiritually dead results in the inability to hear and respond affirmatively to the gospel. However, Matthew 23:13 blows that whole premise out of the water. We had someone who was spiritually dead, in the process of entering heaven. Had they been made alive by the "regeneration" of Irresistible grace? No, they we blocked from entering. Thus that interpretation of the scope of consequences of being spiritually dead is demonstrated to be false.

One they were entering. No one could be entering unless according to the doctrine of total spiritual inability, they had been altered by irresistible grace.

Two, they were not allowed to enter. No one could be prevented if compelled by irresistible grace, so they had not been altered by irresistible grace.

Three, since they were entering and had not been altered, then total spiritual inability is demonstrated false because they had the enough spiritual ability without being regenerated by irresistible grace to be actually entering heaven. It is a lock.

Excellent argument Van, Luke 11:52 also supports this:

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

This shows the determining factor (the key) to be knowledge. And it was not inability preventing or hindering men from entering the kingdom of heaven, and it was not God withholding this knowledge or preventing them either, it was the false doctrine of men that blinded men and locked away the truth.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can see that my earlier post requires some elaboration.

Human beings operate freely within their nature. That explains the verses you quoted. They are acting according to their nature. All those things mentioned in Mark 7:20-23 are reflections of the desires of their heart. Evil people do evil things because they want to.

Even though they are spiritually dead, and can do nothing that is pleasing to God, they cannot say they are doing evil against their will. They are willingly in rebellion against God.

Then to state it properly, the sinner is dead in transgressions and sin. as Paul articulates, he is dead at least as his relationship to God is concerned. But I understand your point, the sinner actively practices evil. You can also add to that Peters commentary in 2 Peter 2:19 " A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him" thus as a sinner he is also enslaved. So if we say dead and/or enslaved whatever, in this state we are enemy's of God, unable to walk with Him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Excellent argument Van, Luke 11:52 also supports this:

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

This shows the determining factor (the key) to be knowledge. And it was not inability preventing or hindering men from entering the kingdom of heaven, and it was not God withholding this knowledge or preventing them either, it was the false doctrine of men that blinded men and locked away the truth.

Thats nonsense....the key is not knowledge, the key is Grace.

 

[David Lamb]

Does physical deadness result in being unable to hear and learn or believe?

Of course! The point Steve is implying is that being spiritually dead results in the inability to hear and respond affirmatively to the gospel. However, Matthew 23:13 blows that whole premise out of the water. We had someone who was spiritually dead, in the process of entering heaven. Had they been made alive by the "regeneration" of Irresistible grace? No, they we blocked from entering. Thus that interpretation of the scope of consequences of being spiritually dead is demonstrated to be false.

It seems (and please put me right if I am in error) that you believe the Pharisees to be more powerful than God. You seem to be saying that there were people who would have become Christians if only those pesky Pharisees hadn't stopped them, and that God was powerless to do anything to remedy the situation. That doesn't sound like the all-powerful God of the bible to me.

Yet despite the attempts of those Pharisees, many Jewish people, including even some of their own number like Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus, were converted.

 

[mandym]

It is clear ,so some have to explain away the meaning,so in effect they do away with a spiritually dead sinner....to one who was just slightly wounded,just a bit sick, but not dead. In this way they do away with the truth[in their minds ,anyway....] then they proceed with their own mistaken agenda.

No that is not what was said at all. And it is more arrogance to twist those words in that way. Neither is it very honest.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No that is not what was said at all. And it is more arrogance to twist those words in that way. Neither is it very honest.

Mandym....then why dont you tell us what you think it means since your so honest & upstanding. Im curious to hear your explanation, Pastor.

 

[glfredrick]

Abraham Kuyper indicated that prior to regeneration , a sinner "has all the passive properties belonging to a corpse"

Like a spiritual corpse, he is unable to make a single move toward God, think a right thought about God, or even respond to God--unless God first brings this spiritually dead corpse to life.

This is the concept that I had in mind when I started this post. There has been some good discussion so far, but much of it along the same old lines, "he said, she said, and I disagree because I said..." sort of stuff.

When I think of our condition before regeneration, I think of all the movies past and current that feature zombies. Like "Night of the Living Dead" we are "zombie-like" in our life without Christ.

Those without Christ (like zombies of motion picture and novel fame):

Are dead, yet un-dead
Have physical appetites, but not for righteousness
Are willing to go to great lengths to satisfy their appetites, even murder, lying, coercion, slander, greed, malice, gossip, theft, physical abuse, etc.
Are not "righteous"
Are not able to change the course of life on their own
Cannot be made "alive" without a re-birth
Are not conscious of their actual state
Are "controlled" by some entity other than God
Are in the process of decay
Are greatly taken up with the pursuit of immediate satisfaction

The question is, as many have already discerned, how does one get from a state as described above to a state where he or she becomes a new creation?

By what act of the un-dead one, do they become alive?

 

[Van]

Hi David Lamb,

"It seems (and please put me right if I am in error) that you believe the Pharisees to be more powerful than God. You seem to be saying that there were people who would have become Christians if only those pesky Pharisees hadn't stopped them, and that God was powerless to do anything to remedy the situation. That doesn't sound like the all-powerful God of the bible to me."

This view is consistent with God being all powerful. If God had compelled those who were entering with irresistible grace, they would have entered and those pesky false teachers would not have prevented them from entering. But if God allows people to trust in Christ from the heart with all their heart, and they are turned aside by false teachers, that is consistent with God's purpose and does not challenge His power. So the issue is what did God choose to do, not what He had the power to do.

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that being spiritually dead does not result in total spiritual inability.

 

[glfredrick]

The point Steve is implying is that being spiritually dead results in the inability to hear and respond affirmatively to the gospel. However, Matthew 23:13 blows that whole premise out of the water. We had someone who was spiritually dead, in the process of entering heaven. Had they been made alive by the "regeneration" of Irresistible grace? No, they we blocked from entering. Thus that interpretation of the scope of consequences of being spiritually dead is demonstrated to be false.

One they were entering. No one could be entering unless according to the doctrine of total spiritual inability, they had been altered by irresistible grace.

Two, they were not allowed to enter. No one could be prevented if compelled by irresistible grace, so they had not been altered by irresistible grace.

Three, since they were entering and had not been altered, then total spiritual inability is demonstrated false because they had the enough spiritual ability without being regenerated by irresistible grace to be actually entering heaven. It is a lock.

Nothing of the type is cited in Matthew 23:13. You are reading into (eisegesis) what you wish to find in that passage. Jesus says:

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in..."

"Who WOULD enter in..." not who HAS ENTERED. How then enter is not even part of the discussion!

Where you get three points ABOUT ENTERING from that passage is beyond me.

 

[Van]

How does a spiritually dead person made alive? When God spiritually places a person in Christ, they are no longer separated from God and therefore are no longer spiritually dead.
Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

 

[glfredrick]

How does a spiritually dead person made alive? When God spiritually places a person in Christ, they are no longer separated from God and therefore are no longer spiritually dead.

Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

Good answer...

If "God spiritually places a person in Christ..." does God also give "faith" to make that happen, or do you not REALLY believe that "God spiritually places a person in Christ" unless the person first places themselves in Christ?

Seems to be a contradiction in your thinking.

 

[Van]

Does scripture say those who would enter or those who are entering?

Glfredrick did present the ESV version, and said He did not understand by the NASB, HCSB, NKJV, YLT, KJV, have it they are entering. Perhaps if we look at the underlying Greek?
Why what do you know, it is an imperative verb in the present tense, so it says they are entering, not would enter. That is why all but one modern versions has it as I presented it. I do not version shop for support, I stick with the NASB because it most reliably reflects the underlying Greek grammar.

 

[Van]

Here is what I said: Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

Here is what Mr. Glfredrick slanderously said I said:
If "God spiritually places a person in Christ..." does God also give "faith" to make that happen, or do you not REALLY believe that "God spiritually places a person in Christ" unless the person first places themselves in Christ?

Seems to be a contradiction in your thinking. "

So first what I said is mistated, and then the contradiction is said to be in my thinking.

Who knew

 

[Van]

It, salvation, does not depend on the man that wills [to be saved] but upon God who has mercy on whom He has mercy. Being spiritually dead precludes our faith from "putting us in Christ." Scripture is crystal, God puts us in Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is the concept that I had in mind when I started this post. There has been some good discussion so far, but much of it along the same old lines, "he said, she said, and I disagree because I said..." sort of stuff.

When I think of our condition before regeneration, I think of all the movies past and current that feature zombies. Like "Night of the Living Dead" we are "zombie-like" in our life without Christ.

Those without Christ (like zombies of motion picture and novel fame):

Are dead, yet un-dead
Have physical appetites, but not for righteousness
Are willing to go to great lengths to satisfy their appetites, even murder, lying, coercion, slander, greed, malice, gossip, theft, physical abuse, etc.
Are not "righteous"
Are not able to change the course of life on their own
Cannot be made "alive" without a re-birth
Are not conscious of their actual state
Are "controlled" by some entity other than God
Are in the process of decay
Are greatly taken up with the pursuit of immediate satisfaction

The question is, as many have already discerned, how does one get from a state as described above to a state where he or she becomes a new creation?

By what act of the un-dead one, do they become alive?

There are many stages to this brother as you know:
1. Election, 2. Effectual call, 3. Justification, 4. Regeneration, 5. faith/ repenting, 6. adoption, 7. sanctification, 8. Perseverance, 9. Glorification, 10. in total- "salvation".

In simple basic terms, first God sought us out. We ran from him, but He pursued us relentlessly (Praise God).....then he gives us understanding. He did it by making us alive in Jesus Christ by the power of the HS. As a result our eyes were opened to see things spiritually.

Lastly, God has given us a righteousness that we did not have & could never have had on our own--His very own righteousness, which is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the ground of our salvation.

I will not fight on these points but stand firm in them. When I was lost, that exact scenario was what happened to me to bring me to salvation. Thats my own personal testimony.

 

[mandym]

The phrase, "Dead in sin and trespasses..." seems to cause some level of consternation here on the board in some circles, particularly those of the un-named theology group, but also some in the libertarian free will camp and those who hold Arminian theology.

The phrase is lifted directly from Ephesians 2:1, rendered below:

New International Version (©1984)
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

English Standard Version (©2001)
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

King James Bible
And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

American King James Version
And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

American Standard Version
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

Young's Literal Translation
Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,

ΠΡΟΣ ΕΦΕΣΙΟΥΣ 2:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
Καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις

ΠΡΟΣ ΕΦΕΣΙΟΥΣ 2:1 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις

ΠΡΟΣ ΕΦΕΣΙΟΥΣ 2:1 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις



So, background set, what IS the problem with saying that we are dead in our sin and trespasses?

Why is this very clear and biblical teaching a problem to some?

Calvinists need to find much better ways to discuss things. Like this example false accusations are often made. If you are going to represent the view of someone else you need to represent it correctly not in a false manner.

Everyone agrees we are dead in our sins.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Everyone agrees we are dead in our sins.

I would beg to disagree with you. In glfredrick's defense, I am fairly certain he recalls some on this board who argued against the term "Dead in sins" however I'm not naming any names. Thats why you probably have the question phrased in that fashion but you will have to ask Guy for his choice of wording.

 

[glfredrick]

Here is what I said: Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

Here is what Mr. Glfredrick slanderously said I said:
If "God spiritually places a person in Christ..." does God also give "faith" to make that happen, or do you not REALLY believe that "God spiritually places a person in Christ" unless the person first places themselves in Christ?

Seems to be a contradiction in your thinking. "

So first what I said is mistated, and then the contradiction is said to be in my thinking.

Who knew

Are you going to worry about whether I am "slandering you" or about my question, which remains the same.

Why is it that only you can raise questions?

 

[glfredrick]

Calvinists need to find much better ways to discuss things. Like this example false accusations are often made. If you are going to represent the view of someone else you need to represent it correctly not in a false manner.

Everyone agrees we are dead in our sins.

I disagree that "everyone believes." Hence the post which asks why some have problems with the statement.

 

[glfredrick]

Here is what I said: Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

Here is what Mr. Glfredrick slanderously said I said:
If "God spiritually places a person in Christ..." does God also give "faith" to make that happen, or do you not REALLY believe that "God spiritually places a person in Christ" unless the person first places themselves in Christ?

Seems to be a contradiction in your thinking. "

So first what I said is mistated, and then the contradiction is said to be in my thinking.

Who knew

Here is your initial post and the part that I was citing. You make that a preface to what you write after. Coherence is good...

How does a spiritually dead person made alive? When God spiritually places a person in Christ, they are no longer separated from God and therefore are no longer spiritually dead.Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.