Dead in Sin

[Van]

"Dead in trespasses and sins" is the spiritual condition of all men before God.

SNIP

The definition of "dead in trespasses and sins" is found right in the words of God, my friends...
There is no need to argue over what it means, as one only has to read and believe what is written.


May God bless each of you in His grace and mercy.

The false claim of Calvinism defines being dead in sins as being unable to seek God. But many seek God.

The issue is not that fallen people are predisposed to sin. But whether or not the fallen condition renders the person unable to understand the gospel. Calvinism says the fallen are unable to seek God but Romans 9:16 says salvation does not depend on the person who wills. Thus the view of Calvinism is directly opposite to the teaching of scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The false claim of Calvinism defines being dead in sins as being unable to seek God. But many seek God.

The issue is not that fallen people are predisposed to sin. But whether or not the fallen condition renders the person unable to understand the gospel. Calvinism says the fallen are unable to seek God but Romans 9:16 says salvation does not depend on the person who wills. Thus the view of Calvinism is directly opposite to the teaching of scripture.

I understand that your theology, like @Silverhair's, requires you to believe that 'dead in trespasses' really means 'alive to God.'
But praise God, although sinners are indeed dead in trespasses and sins, Romans 9:16 also teaches the precise opposite of what you are suggesting it means. 'So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.' Those whom Van describes as the 'fallen' are entirely unable to find God, either through their own fallen wills - making resolutions to do better or joining some religious organization - or by their efforts - trying to do good works of one sort or another. It is only God who shows mercy by saving lost sinners unilaterally, which He has done by sending the Lord Jesus willingly to suffer and die for totally lost sinners (cf. 1 Tim. 1:15) and the Holy Spirit to give them new birth.

 

[JonC]

"Dead in sin" is defined already in Scripture. The mind set on the flesh is death. The mind set on the Spirit is life. The wages of sin is death. The gift of God is life in Christ.

I am not sure that J.C. Philpot added anything meaningful.

 

[Ascetic X]

I understand that your theology, like @Silverhair's, requires you to believe that 'dead in trespasses' really means 'alive to God.'

It is only God who shows mercy by saving lost sinners unilaterally, which He has done by sending the Lord Jesus willingly to suffer and die for totally lost sinners (cf. 1 Tim. 1:15) and the Holy Spirit to give them new birth.

Nobody is saying that “dead in trespasses and sins” = “alive unto God”. But an unsaved person has the potential to become alive unto God by responding positively to a proper presentation of God’s Word.

Martin claims that salvation occurs when God sends His son to die and the Holy Spirit gives them new birth.

Notice that he fails to describe what the sinner must do. He makes it seem like God swoops down to rescue a person, without them doing anything at all.

No seeking God. No acknowledgement of wickedly offending God through personal sin. No repentance. No confessing Jesus as Lord or believing that God raised Him from the dead. No embracing of how Jesus died for his personal sins.

Just God saving an individual against their will.

The ideology of unbiblical Calvinism. Some Calvinists thus were opposed to evangelism and missions, since they considered these efforts to be irrelevant. The elect will be saved, we do not need to do anything to help this happen.

But John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter should, to conform to Calvinism, have preached, “Wait until God forces salvation upon you unexpectedly!” instead of “Repent and believe in the Son who is God, the Lord Jesus Christ!”

The sinner hears and believes the gospel, repents of his sins, and trusts in the blood of Jesus who died for him on the cross. There is no other way of salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

I understand that your theology, like @Silverhair's, requires you to believe that 'dead in trespasses' really means 'alive to God.'
But praise God, although sinners are indeed dead in trespasses and sins, Romans 9:16 also teaches the precise opposite of what you are suggesting it means. 'So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.' Those whom Van describes as the 'fallen' are entirely unable to find God, either through their own fallen wills - making resolutions to do better or joining some religious organization - or by their efforts - trying to do good works of one sort or another. It is only God who shows mercy by saving lost sinners unilaterally, which He has done by sending the Lord Jesus willingly to suffer and die for totally lost sinners (cf. 1 Tim. 1:15) and the Holy Spirit to give them new birth.

So I would have to surmise that you do not have
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. in your bible.

or
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Or this one
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And you obviously do not have this one
Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

We have to believe Martin, God does not do it foe us.
@Martin Marprelate you are rather odd, on one hand you say the person has to repent and believe and then you say God has to do it for them.

The bible is clear that we have to believe, why do you not trust the word of God?
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Only God can save and He has chosen to save those the freely believe in Him.

 

[Van]

I understand that your theology, like @Silverhair's, requires you to believe that 'dead in trespasses' really means 'alive to God.'
But praise God, although sinners are indeed dead in trespasses and sins, Romans 9:16 also teaches the precise opposite of what you are suggesting it means. 'So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.' Those whom Van describes as the 'fallen' are entirely unable to find God, either through their own fallen wills - making resolutions to do better or joining some religious organization - or by their efforts - trying to do good works of one sort or another. It is only God who shows mercy by saving lost sinners unilaterally, which He has done by sending the Lord Jesus willingly to suffer and die for totally lost sinners (cf. 1 Tim. 1:15) and the Holy Spirit to give them new birth.

More denial of the obvious. No mention that Calvinism says no one ever seeks God, but Jesus says many seek God.
Then to continue down the Calvinist road of denial, this poster says "the fallen are entirely unable to find God," but the parallel verse, Matthew 7:14, says a few find God, the "Narrow Door." I can go on and on, but this poster will still not acknowledge any of the verses that clearly teach his indoctrination is a fiction from the dark ages.

Next the poster repeats the position I hold, it is God who has mercy, not the fallen who somehow earn or merit salvation.

Do not be fooled by the well practiced deceit, to be dead in sins means to be unholy and thus separated from our holy God, using the illustration of how the dead are separated from the living. Dead separated from Christ, made alive together with Christ.

Last point, did you see the phrase "totally lost?" Do you know how many times that phrase is found in scripture? Zero, it is a made up phrase to imply the lost are totally unable to seek God or understand the gospel. Demonic in its origin.

 

[Van]

But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul. (Deuteronomy 4:29)

Folks, scripture says over and over, if the lost seek God, through trust without reservation, they will find Him.

But in their distress they turned to the LORD God of Israel, and they sought Him, and He let them find Him. (2 Chronicles 15:4)

Yet another verse saying the lost can be aware of God, can seek God, and can find God.

Folks, trust in the Lord, and not in the clever stories of people.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nobody is saying that “dead in trespasses and sins” = “alive unto God”. But an unsaved person has the potential to become alive unto God by responding positively to a proper presentation of God’s Word.

I don't know whether you have ever read the book Treasure Island, but Long John Silver had a talking parrot called Cap'n Flint, who could say, amongst other things, "Dead men don't bite." The parrot was right. Dead men don't bite; nor do they believe.
In Ephesians 2, Paul tells the Ephesian Christians, and Christians everywhere, that they were dead - not physically dead obviously, but dead in trespasses and sins. In such a condition, they could not believe the Gospel until God, 'even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ,' and just in case we might have thought we had to contribute in some way to make ourselves alive, Paul adds, 'by grace you have been saved.'
In case anyone is confused by this, we can go to John 3:3, where we read, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again [or 'from above'], he cannot see the kingdom of God." If someone is spiritually dead, he needs to be born again, born from above, born of the Spirit. Why? Because, 'the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spititually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14).
So no, an unsaved person does not have the potential to become alive unto God, unless and until God the Holy Spirit gives him new birth.

Martin claims that salvation occurs when God sends His son to die and the Holy Spirit gives them new birth.

Notice that he fails to describe what the sinner must do. He makes it seem like God swoops down to rescue a person, without them doing anything at all.

No seeking God. No acknowledgement of wickedly offending God through personal sin. No repentance. No confessing Jesus as Lord or believing that God raised Him from the dead. No embracing of how Jesus died for his personal sins.

I cannot repeat myself every single time I post. If you can find where I have said that anyone can be saved without trusting in Christ for salvation, you can take me out and shoot me! First, someone must be born again; then he will repent and trust in Christ. Please note that I am not saying that it is no good preaching to unsaved people. On the contrary, we must preach to the dry bones (Ezek. 37) and God, if He wills, will make them come alive.

Just God saving an individual against their will.

And this isn't true either, and I have never said it. God gives people a new heart and a new spirit and they willingly come to Christ. 'Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power' (Psalm 110:3).

The ideology of unbiblical Calvinism. Some Calvinists thus were opposed to evangelism and missions, since they considered these efforts to be irrelevant. The elect will be saved, we do not need to do anything to help this happen.

This isn't Calvinism; it is @Silverhair's caricature of it. As I told him, most of the preachers most greatly used by God have been Calvinists. Adoniram Judson went all the way to Burma to seek the lost; he was a Calvinist. There is a breed of men called 'hyper-Calvinists' who have believed this, but certainly Calvin didn't, and nor did the Reformers and Puritans.

But John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter should, to conform to Calvinism, have preached, “Wait until God forces salvation upon you unexpectedly!” instead of “Repent and believe in the Son who is God, the Lord Jesus Christ!”

You're just off on your own pathetic little rant here. I have never suggested any such thing. "Prophesy to the bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live"'" (Ezek. 37:4-5). So who prophesied to the bones? Ezekiel. And who caused breath [or spirit] to enter into them? Almighty God.

The sinner hears and believes the gospel, repents of his sins, and trusts in the blood of Jesus who died for him on the cross. There is no other way of salvation.

Amen! But he will only do so if God gives him new birth. Dead is dead, and spiritually dead is spiritually dead.

'Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light.
My chains fell off, my heart was free;
I rose, went forth and followed Thee.'

Those lines were written by an Arminian, but even he understood that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws Him (John 6:44).

 

[Van]

I see yet another fiction being asserted. A person must be born anew before they will trust in the Lord. This again is directly refuted by scripture.

John 1:12 NASB
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name,

The lost become children of God AFTER they believe, NOT before, according to scripture.

 

[Van]

How is a lost person "drawn" to Christ? We love Him because He first loved us. Thus the lovingkindness of Christ as shown in the Gospel by Christ dying for our sins, is what "draws" the lost to Christ. And this, of course, occurs BEFORE we place our faith in Christ.

All this hocus-pocus about a supernatural transforming beam, a fiction invented by false teachers and called "Irresistible grace" rejects the actual doctrines of Christ.

 

[Ascetic X]

@Martin Marprelate states:

“First, someone must be born again; then he will repent and trust in Christ.”

Again, this is backwards. The total depravity of Calvinism, which negates all the biblical commands to sinners to repent.

John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter never proclaimed, “Get born again and then you will repent and trust in
Christ.”

They proclaimed, “Repent” or “Repent and believe”.

Mark 1:15
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

I understand “receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” to refer to being born again or born from above. Martin Marprelate says that you must be born again (receive the gift of the Holy Spirit) prior to repenting.

So how, if not a result of repenting, does a person get born again? Martin seems to think the new birth is just imposed by God upon an individual unexpectedly, without them even seeking God or getting sick of their sinful life.

The dry bones reference in Ezekiel 37 is not referring to the new birth that occurs in already physically alive individuals.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't know whether you have ever read the book Treasure Island, but Long John Silver had a talking parrot called Cap'n Flint, who could say, amongst other things, "Dead men don't bite." The parrot was right. Dead men don't bite; nor do they believe.
In Ephesians 2, Paul tells the Ephesian Christians, and Christians everywhere, that they were dead - not physically dead obviously, but dead in trespasses and sins. In such a condition, they could not believe the Gospel until God, 'even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ,' and just in case we might have thought we had to contribute in some way to make ourselves alive, Paul adds, 'by grace you have been saved.'
In case anyone is confused by this, we can go to John 3:3, where we read, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again [or 'from above'], he cannot see the kingdom of God." If someone is spiritually dead, he needs to be born again, born from above, born of the Spirit. Why? Because, 'the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spititually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14).
So no, an unsaved person does not have the potential to become alive unto God, unless and until God the Holy Spirit gives him new birth.


I cannot repeat myself every single time I post. If you can find where I have said that anyone can be saved without trusting in Christ for salvation, you can take me out and shoot me! First, someone must be born again; then he will repent and trust in Christ. Please note that I am not saying that it is no good preaching to unsaved people. On the contrary, we must preach to the dry bones (Ezek. 37) and God, if He wills, will make them come alive.

And this isn't true either, and I have never said it. God gives people a new heart and a new spirit and they willingly come to Christ. 'Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power' (Psalm 110:3).

This isn't Calvinism; it is @Silverhair's caricature of it. As I told him, most of the preachers most greatly used by God have been Calvinists. Adoniram Judson went all the way to Burma to seek the lost; he was a Calvinist. There is a breed of men called 'hyper-Calvinists' who have believed this, but certainly Calvin didn't, and nor did the Reformers and Puritans.

You're just off on your own pathetic little rant here. I have never suggested any such thing. "Prophesy to the bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live"'" (Ezek. 37:4-5). So who prophesied to the bones? Ezekiel. And who caused breath [or spirit] to enter into them? Almighty God.

Amen! But he will only do so if God gives him new birth. Dead is dead, and spiritually dead is spiritually dead.

'Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light.
My chains fell off, my heart was free;
I rose, went forth and followed Thee.'

Those lines were written by an Arminian, but even he understood that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws Him (John 6:44).

Martin in post # 25 you said this:

So I tell anyone who will hear that if they will repent and trust in Christ, they will be saved. And they will (Joe_2:32; Act_2:21; you had rom 9:13 but I think you meant Rom_10:13).

That agrees with
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

and
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

But it seems you do forget Martin. This is what you said in post # 48
First, someone must be born again; then he will repent and trust in Christ.

born G1080 again G509 John_3:3

born G1080
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work
again G509
anew, over again

So Martin what you preach is not what you believe.

“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

Why is that?

If Calvinism is true then faith in Jesus is secondary to election and logically faith plays no part in your salvation, election is what matters not faith.

You were right when you said the unsaved will not see the Kingdom of God. That is why the Father sent the Son so that all could be saved if they would freely trust in the risen Son.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

That is why we preach the gospel message:
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

So that
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

As you said God has to draw and we know that is the desire of God that all be saved
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Christ will draw all to Himself so salvation is available to all that will freely trust in Him.
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.