Dead in Sin

[Silverhair]

The reason that the exercise of faith is not a work is that it is the gift of God (Phil. 1:29 etc.).
Jonah 2:9. 'Salvation is of the LORD.'
Matt. 16:17. "..... For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but My Father who is in heaven.'
Acts 16:14. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken to her by Paul.'
Gal. 1:15-16. 'But when it pleased God ... to reveal His Son in me.'
1 Thes. 1:4-6. '... Knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance .... and you became followers of us and of the Lord....'
1 Timothy 1:15. 'This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.'
Titus 3:5. '.....Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.'
1 Peter 1:3. 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.'
1 John 5:1. 'Whoever believes [present tense] that Jesus is the Christ is born [perfect tense. 'has been born'] of God.'
Rev. 7:9. '... Crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."'

These are ten verses that have come quickly to mind. I'm sure there are some others; feel free to add them below.

@Martin Marprelate you say faith is a gift from God but none of the verses that you posted support that view.

You have to read your view into the text.

But what does the bible say?

God does not give us faith but requires that we have faith, that we trust in His risen son.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...
Mar_1:15 “The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Gal_2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal_3:7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are sons of Abraham.

Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes G4100 (G5723) in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Joh_5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes G4100 (G5723) Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

believes G4100 (G5723) 27 times in NT

Mark​	1 verse found​
John​	14 verses found​
Acts​	2 verses found​
Romans​	6 verses found​
1 Peter​	1 verse found​
1 John​	3 verses found​

G4100
to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
G5723
Tense-Present See [G5774]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

G5774
Tense-Present
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous)

G5784
Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Faith is not a gift it is a response by the person to the various means that God has used and is using to draw people to Himself.

 

[Silverhair]

Your view is not consistent with scripture. Many (lost) people seek God but are unable to find Him. Luke 13:24. Can you answer the question, why would the Holy Spirit make the gospel real in the heart, if they then will not be able to find Him.

Or the verse in Matthew where people are in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven, but are then prevented from going in by false teachings. Or why Prevenient grace had no application to Soil #1 of Matthew 13.

On the other hand, there are no verses that say the lost are unable to seek God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural (lost) person cannot understand "the things" of the Spirit of God. It does NOT say the natural person cannot understand all the things, since Romans 1:20 precludes that interpretation. However, we do know that the natural (lost) cannot understand spiritual solid food, as you have to be indwelt in order understand spiritual meat.

Prevenient Grace, like Irresistible Grace is an unnecessary invention to overcome the fiction of "total spiritual inability" of the lost.

You call Prevenient Grace and invention but that is not how I see it. I see it as God's grace at work in a person's life before they are aware of it, enabling them to respond in faith. This grace enables people to choose to accept or reject salvation thus their ultimate decision remains their own responsibility.

These passages would suggest the preceding grace of God.
Joh 1:9 The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in Me should remain in darkness.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.

Tit 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,

And there are others but for me these passages collectively support the idea that Prevenient Grace is God's initiative in enabling individuals to respond to Him, despite their fallen state.

 

[Charlie24]

Your view is not consistent with scripture. Many (lost) people seek God but are unable to find Him. Luke 13:24. Can you answer the question, why would the Holy Spirit make the gospel real in the heart, if they then will not be able to find Him.

Or the verse in Matthew where people are in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven, but are then prevented from going in by false teachings. Or why Prevenient grace had no application to Soil #1 of Matthew 13.

On the other hand, there are no verses that say the lost are unable to seek God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural (lost) person cannot understand "the things" of the Spirit of God. It does NOT say the natural person cannot understand all the things, since Romans 1:20 precludes that interpretation. However, we do know that the natural (lost) cannot understand spiritual solid food, as you have to be indwelt in order understand spiritual meat.

Prevenient Grace, like Irresistible Grace is an unnecessary invention to overcome the fiction of "total spiritual inability" of the lost.

You may not like it Van, but the Calvinists are correct on total depravity.

Rom. 3:10-12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

 

[Ben1445]

You may not like it Van, but the Calvinists are correct on total depravity.

Rom. 3:10-12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

What they have erred on is who God seeks after.

 

[Charlie24]

What they have erred on is who God seeks after.

That's the way I see it, God seeks after who wil believe Him.

Along the way those who will not believe also hear the Gospel as witness againast them.

 

[Ben1445]

That's the way I see it, God seeks after who wil believe Him.

Along the way those who will not believe also hear the Gospel as witness againast them.

I see also that God seeks those who reject Him.
Cain. And he would not.
Jerusalem. But they would not.
The rich man’s brothers who had the Law and Prophets given to them. But they would not.

 

[Charlie24]

I see also that God seeks those who reject Him.
Cain. And he would not.
Jerusalem. But they would not.
The rich man’s brothers who had the Law and Prophets given to them. But they would not.

It's not God's will that any perish, so I would agree God seeks out all for salvation.

But man can reject that salvation.

That's a good point, Ben!

 

[Silverhair]

You may not like it Van, but the Calvinists are correct on total depravity.

Rom. 3:10-12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

@Charlie24 if I my interject here.

The depravity of man is biblical it is the Total Depravity of calvinism that is questionable.

Total depravity in Calvinism is the doctrine that, as a result of original sin, every person is born with a sinful nature that completely incapacitates them from choosing to follow God or do good without divine grace.

You have fallen into the error of calvinism when you read into Rom3:10-12 the view of total depravity.

The context shows that Paul was writing to Jews pointing out that they had historically rejected God. They could not count on the fact they were Jews for their salvation. The Law they were under condemned them.

If you had continued to read you would see that man does actually have the ability to respond in faith to the gospel message. Rom 3:22-26

Are we sinners? Yes
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But being sinners does not mean we have lost the ability to hear, think and respond to the gospel message. Rom 10:9-10

Rom 3:24 and are justified freely by His grace...
Rom 3:26 ... to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

It is unfortunate that so many have been influenced by the false teaching that has come from calvinism.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24 if I my interject here.

The depravity of man is biblical it is the Total Depravity of calvinism that is questionable.

Total depravity in Calvinism is the doctrine that, as a result of original sin, every person is born with a sinful nature that completely incapacitates them from choosing to follow God or do good without divine grace.

You have fallen into the error of calvinism when you read into Rom3:10-12 the view of total depravity.

The context shows that Paul was writing to Jews pointing out that they had historically rejected God. They could not count on the fact they were Jews for their salvation. The Law they were under condemned them.

If you had continued to read you would see that man does actually have the ability to respond in faith to the gospel message. Rom 3:22-26

Are we sinners? Yes
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But being sinners does not mean we have lost the ability to hear, think and respond to the gospel message. Rom 10:9-10

Rom 3:24 and are justified freely by His grace...
Rom 3:26 ... to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

It is unfortunate that so many have been influenced by the false teaching that has come from calvinism.

The only way that man can call on God for salvation is through the hearing of the Gospel.

Then after hearing the Gospel man can accept or reject that calling.

I agree with the Calvinists that man is totally depraved but not in their doctrine of what it means to them.

 

[Charlie24]

The only way that man can call on God for salvation is through the hearing of the Gospel.

Then after hearing the Gospel man can accept or reject that calling.

I agree with the Calvinists that man is totally depraved but not in their doctrine of what it means to them.

This goes back to the question of where does saving faith come from?

It comes from the hearing of the Gospel as Paul said, if we accept that Gospel.

 

[Charlie24]

This goes back to the question of where does saving faith come from?

It comes from the hearing of the Gospel as Paul said, if we accept that Gospel.

The Scripture says to call on God when He is near, while He may be found.

That is when the Holy Spirit speaks to the heart of man when he hears the Gospel.

 

[Charlie24]

The Scripture says to call on God when He is near, while He may be found.

That is when the Holy Spirit speaks to the heart of man when he hears the Gospel.

The Gospel was no mystery to the Israelites in the wilderness, Paul said the Gospel was preached to us as well as them.

But the Gospel had no effect on them not mixing it with faith when they heard it.

The same as today.

 

[Silverhair]

The only way that man can call on God for salvation is through the hearing of the Gospel.

Then after hearing the Gospel man can accept or reject that calling.

I agree with the Calvinists that man is totally depraved but not in their doctrine of what it means to them.

I agree man is depraved just as we see in scripture.

It is the flawed calvinist view that I oppose. They have taken it to far.

 

[Silverhair]

This goes back to the question of where does saving faith come from?

It comes from the hearing of the Gospel as Paul said, if we accept that Gospel.

The calvinist will say God has to give you faith but that view is not biblical.

Faith is a response of the person to the drawing of God.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree man is depraved just as we see in scripture.

It is the flawed calvinist view that I oppose. They have taken it to far.

Yes sir, and it angers me in in the spirit and comes out through the flesh.

Sonething I do better with instead of letting it stir.

 

[Charlie24]

The calvinist will say God has to give you faith but that view is not biblical.

Faith is a response of the person to the drawing of God.

You're preeaching to the choir, Brother!

 

[Silverhair]

You're preeaching to the choir, Brother!

Yes I know I am.

I just want others that may read this thread to not have any doubts as to the error of calvinism.

Far to many have been mislead by those teachings.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes I know I am.

I just want others that may read this thread to not have any doubts as to the error of calvinism.

That only proves you're standing by the stuff, and it will be rewarded.

 

[Silverhair]

That only proves you're standing by the stuff, and it will be rewarded.

Some others on here would say condemned.

 

[Charlie24]

Some others on here would say condemned.

Many said the same of our Savior.

Just the same, none of them can prove your Scriptures to be false.

In fact it's overwhelming, and I've learned from you, Brother.