Dead in Sin

[Van]

Well, to be honest about it, I also avoid using the phrase "totally depraved" unless I have to go into detail on the matter.

It's associated with a different meaning in Calvinism, and can be misleading as to its true meaning.

But nevertheless the phrase is true, but we need to know the difference.

Right, since it can be misleading, we should avoid it. Christ's mandate is to speak plainly, boldly and clearly.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

LOL, don't esplode, it's just an expression I though appropriate at the time.

You should know I take every Word of God very seriously, not doubting a word of it.

I know you do, brother. I was only teasing you!

 

[Charlie24]

Right, since it can be misleading, we should avoid it. Christ's mandate is to speak plainly, boldly and clearly.

Well, I can't very well argue with that, let's nip in the bud then, that's the IFB way.

 

[Van]

Well, I can't very well argue with that, let's nip in the bud then, that's the IFB way.

Hopefully that word salad means we should avoid use of the phrase.

 

[Charlie24]

Hopefully that word salad means we should avoid use of the phrase.

We don't have to because it's true, but I think it not a bad idea to stop using it, or at least when it is said to clarify the difference.

 

[Silverhair]

Prevenient Grace is a fiction invented to resolve the invented fiction of total spiritual inability. To muddy the waters by claiming it "ONLY means God's grace received before ELECTION is simply an effort at deceit.

That is your opinion Van.

The scripture I posted points to pervenient grace. You may not like it but it is what it is.

 

[Craigbythesea]

All of God's elect - the sheep that Christ died for, their sins having been imputed to Him and His perfect righteousness having been imputed to them.

All of God's elect - those He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety. None of those whom God reprobated before the world began.

Should we believe a renegade Roman Catholic politician—or should we believe God and His word?

 

[Craigbythesea]

1) The Phrase "sinned in Adam" is not found in scripture. But all those conceived in Adam, in the realm of darkness, do sin if they live long enough. Aborted preborns did NOT sin in Adam, but they were "made sinners."

2) We are conceived in unbelief, therefore condemned to death from the beginning, as a consequence of Adam's sin.

3) Scripture teaches sin causes hardship for descendants of sinners. In other words, as a consequence of sin, we were all made sinners, separated from God, with a corrupted spirit, prone to sin.

4) Yes, I agree, the consequence of the Fall, is not passed "biologically." It is passed spiritually, such as Eve having her eyes opened.

5) No, we sin due to Satan's snares, the World's influence and our internal "fleshly desires.

6) The "Old man" sometimes translated as "Old Self" or "Sinful Nature" refers to our our memory of our characteristics, attributes and attitudes prior to being born anew. See this thread for more on that topic: The Old Self

7) Ephesians 6:12, says our struggle is NOT against the physical world, but against wickedness of the spiritual world. We have fleshly desires, say hunger, and therefore hunger is not a sin, but if we engage in gluttony, not exercising self control, that is a sin. Both our hunger and controlling our will are internal forces, one physical, one utilizing spiritual guidance.

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
.
.
.

18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Paul argues here that we all sinned in Adam, the proof being that we all die, including those who lived before the Law was given, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, the ONLY sin for which those who sinned before the Law was given would have paid the penalty of death is the sin that they committed in Adam. Although the Law had not yet been given when Adam sinned, he had been specifically told by God,

Gen. 2:16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Paul had written in Romans 3:23 that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but in his letter to the Philippians, Paul wrote at 3:6

6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Paul was blameless as to the Law, but he, along with everyone else, had sinned in Adam. Had he not sinned in Adam, he would not have been guilty of sin.

Another proof that we all sinned in Adam is that babies often die long before they have an opportunity to sin in and of themselves—they die because they sinned in Adam!

In theology 101, this is known as the “doctrine of original sin.”

Compare,

Hebrews 7:9. And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,
10. for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1 Cor. 15:22. 'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.'

 

[KenH]

Should we believe a renegade Roman Catholic politician—or should we believe God and His word?

One should believe God and His word. And what did God reveal in His word concerning whom He saves?

God revealed in His word that He saves all of His elect whom He chose before the world began - the sheep that Christ died for, their sins having been imputed to Him and His perfect righteousness having been imputed to them.

God also revealed in His word that He does not save those whom He reprobated before the world began.

 

[Van]

That is your opinion Van.

The scripture I posted points to pervenient grace. You may not like it but it is what it is.

Still NOT addressing the issue. Prevenient Grace is established in published sources as being an "enabling" grace that enables the lost to hear, understand and respond or reject the gospel. Your use as only meaning "revelatory grace" just creates confusion or deception.

 

[Silverhair]

Still NOT addressing the issue. Prevenient Grace is established in published sources as being an "enabling" grace that enables the lost to hear, understand and respond or reject the gospel. Your use as only meaning "revelatory grace" just creates confusion or deception.

I have address the issue Van you just do not like the scripture that I pointed out to you.

You seem to have a problem with God enabling the lost person to hear, understand and respond in faith or reject the gospel.

Why is that Van?

Is that not what He did for you?

Or do you think He just gave you faith?

 

[Craigbythesea]

One should believe God and His word. And what did God reveal in His word concerning whom He saves?

God revealed in His word that He saves all of His elect whom He chose before the world began - the sheep that Christ died for, their sins having been imputed to Him and His perfect righteousness having been imputed to them.

God also revealed in His word that He does not save those whom He reprobated before the world began.

Since the protestant Reformation, only one exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Romans written from a Reformed perspective has been published by a publishing house or a university,

Murray, John. The Epistle to the Romans. “New International Commentary on the New Testament series”. Grand Rapids: WM. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1959.

Since the protestant Reformation, more than 60 exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Romans written from a non-Reformed perspective have been published by a publishing house or a university. The reason for this disparity is not a secret—writing commentaries on Romans from a Reformed perspective is exceeding difficult because Romans does not support Reformed theology.

 

[Ascetic X]

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
.

18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Paul argues here that we all sinned in Adam, the proof being that we all die, including those who lived before the Law was given, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, the ONLY sin for which those who sinned before the Law was given would have paid the penalty of death is the sin that they committed in Adam. Although the Law had not yet been given when Adam sinned, he had been specifically told by God,

Gen. 2:16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Paul had written in Romans 3:23 that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but in his letter to the Philippians, Paul wrote at 3:6

6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Paul was blameless as to the Law, but he, along with everyone else, had sinned in Adam. Had he not sinned in Adam, he would not have been guilty of sin.

Another proof that we all sinned in Adam is that babies often die long before they have an opportunity to sin in and of themselves—they die because they sinned in Adam!

In theology 101, this is known as the “doctrine of original sin.”

Compare,

Hebrews 7:9. And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,
10. for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

That is the craziest phrase I have ever heard — “sinned in Adam”!

Babies do not die because they sinned in Adam. All humans die because Adam and Eve’s sin brought a curse of sickness, injury, aging, and death upon all living creatures. Dogs, cats, birds, etc. do not die due to them sinning in Adam.

If you mean humans inherit from Adam and Eve a fallen nature that is prone to sin, okay.

But babies do not sin in Adam or anyone else, they are unable to understand the law of righteousness, and cannot be judged until the age of accountability, when they have a conscience that knows right from wrong. Babies die due to the mortal consequences of the sin nature in them, but not due to “sinning in Adam” or any personal sin committed.

Paul was blameless in terms of the law outwardly, but he still sinned inwardly, as evidenced by his extraordinary zeal for cruelty in putting Christians to death, and his admission that, even when saved, he still was enslaved to sin, and did what he did not want to do.

He says nothing about “sinning in Adam”.

Romans 7

8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good….

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[KenH]

Since the protestant Reformation, only one exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Romans written from a Reformed perspective has been published by a publishing house or a university,

Murray, John. The Epistle to the Romans. “New International Commentary on the New Testament series”. Grand Rapids: WM. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1959.

Since the protestant Reformation, more than 60 exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Romans written from a non-Reformed perspective have been published by a publishing house or a university.

 

[KenH]

@Craigbythesea By the way, I know that you missed a commentary, published by Titus Books, by Robert Haldane, Commentary on Romans. So there are at least two on Romans.

I don't know why you think that a publishing house or university matters.

 

[Craigbythesea]

One should believe God and His word. And what did God reveal in His word concerning whom He saves?

God revealed in His word that He saves all of His elect whom He chose before the world began - the sheep that Christ died for, their sins having been imputed to Him and His perfect righteousness having been imputed to them.

God also revealed in His word that He does not save those whom He reprobated before the world began.

If God really revealed in His word these things, why did not anyone notice such concepts in the Bible before the 16th century? We have today a huge quantity of Pre-Reformation Christian literature that has been digitalized and very carefully studied, by persons representing a very wide spectrum of theological thought and we know for an absolute certainty that such concepts are not found in any Christian literature before the 16th century. Indeed, such concepts were introduced into the Church during the early years of the Protestant Reformation by men whose only theological education came from Roman Catholics during a time when the Roman Catholic Church was in a state of serious decay.

 

[Craigbythesea]

That is the craziest phrase I have ever heard — “sinned in Adam”!

Babies do not die because they sinned in Adam. All humans die because Adam and Eve’s sin brought a curse of sickness, injury, aging, and death upon all living creatures. Dogs, cats, birds, etc. do not die due to them sinning in Adam.

If you mean humans inherit from Adam and Eve a fallen nature that is prone to sin, okay.

But babies do not sin in Adam or anyone else, they are unable to understand the law of righteousness, and cannot be judged until the age of accountability, when they have a conscience that knows right from wrong. Babies die due to the mortal consequences of the sin nature in them, but not due to “sinning in Adam” or any personal sin committed.

Paul was blameless in terms of the law outwardly, but he still sinned inwardly, as evidenced by his extraordinary zeal for cruelty in putting Christians to death, and his admission that, even when saved, he still was enslaved to sin, and did what he did not want to do.

He says nothing about “sinning in Adam”.

Romans 7

8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good….

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

All humans, including babies, do not die because of a curse; they die because they have sinned.

Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

The only age of accountability mentioned in the Bible is 20 years old (Numbers 14:29-32) which, of course, has nothing at all to do with the death of babies. Moreover, babies are not judged for their own personal sins—they are judged for the sin that they committed in Adam. Furthermore, babies do not die due to mortal consequences of a sin nature in them (human beings do not have a sin nature); they die because they have sinned—in Adam.


Philippians 3:2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3. for we are the {true} circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Romans 7:14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I {would} like to {do,} but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want {to do,} I agree with the Law, {confessing} that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good {is} not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

I do not believe that when Saul of Tarsus believed on the Lord Jesus Christ the consequence was that he became a helpless sinner. Moreover, the man in Romans 7:14-25 is striving with every ounce of his being to keep the Law. This is something that faithful Jews do; it is not is something that faithful Christians do. In Romans 7:14-25 Paul is using a rhetorical device known as “speech in character” that was commonly used by Greek writers in the first century—and so it is today; and not only among Greek writers, but also English writers. Indeed, I have used it several or more times in my posts on the Baptist Board.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Since the protestant Reformation, only one exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Romans written from a Reformed perspective has been published by a publishing house or a university,

Murray, John. The Epistle to the Romans. “New International Commentary on the New Testament series”. Grand Rapids: WM. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1959.

Er..... no. I have three commentaries on Romans written from a Reformed perspective on my bookshelf.

Haldane, Robert, Romans. Banner of Truth 'Geneva' Commentary, 1958. Originally published around 1835.
Moule, Handley, The Epistle to the Romans, Hodder and Stoughton, 1904.
Hendriksen, William, Romans, Banner of Truth (published by Baker Book House in the USA, I believe), 1980.
In addition, I have several volumes of D.M. Lloyd-jones' sermons on Romans, also published by Banner of Truth.

Apparently I am well out of date. Top 5 Commentaries on the Book of Romans

In fact there are dozens of Reformed commentaries on Romans. The one by Thomas Shreiner has been recommended to me. Romans, like all the other books of the Bible, amply supports Reformed theology.

 

[Salty]

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